so ya wanna compare breeds

  • Nice video. Interesting to see the different breed dogs work.


    Does anyone else think top level KNPV dogs show better than this as far as commitment to the bite?

  • Def some solid tests-good find Pete.


    I particularily like the muzzle test with the guy in the suit taking the "beating". The dogs going after the attacker does raise some questions in my mind about a dogs understanding of their role in that scenario-maybe another thread perhaps but visually what's the difference between the handler knocking a guy instead of vice versa? If the dog is trained to attack the agressor it would be hard to inhibit this response in a real scenario where the master is winning the altercation. I have seen police dog tests where 9 times out of 10 the officer was attacked by his own service dog (in a muzzle) because he was the loser of the fight on his back thus indicating someone else being alpha and stimulating the dog to increase his rank at an opportune time or at least that is the thinking in that amazing test. This is why in PSD selection in the RCMP they specifically look for 2nd or 3rd ranking pups in the litter to elminate this trait as much as they can. This scenario shows the opposite and makes me ask: If I am winning, will my dog bite me? Losing? He knows to bite the other guy no matter what-right?


    I did notice on the test with the shield many dogs were eyeing the suit and not the man. I dont like this as its just a game to beat the object to get the prey. Many of the dogs didnt look pissed but more gamey. One GSD did try to go over the shield which was a good sign. I have done a very similar test on my dog but in an elevated position by the decoy to see what he was looking at and he passed with dead eye contact the entire time. I could post the video if anyone wants to take a look......


    Not being a prick but many of these dogs looked soft. The tests were solid but in my opinion the dogs didnt light up with the intensity that I'd like to see. In Jo's video he posted not too long ago was a great example of strong tests with a really nice dog working intensely. If anyone reading hasnt seen it yet have a look back at it-that dog is very well selected and trained.

  • in the tests that the KNPV dogs are trained in since 5wo they would do better, doing these tests cold I dunno.


    yes the dogs looked a bit ordinary in places, wondering if they did not know the tests, I think a lot of good dogs would have shown uncertainty.


    dobe did OK tho huh? could have been worse.


    I like the tests more than most of the dogs.

  • In those tests you speak of the PSD handlers were bit by their own dogs because the dogs were simply used to doing bitework on a downed decoy.


    Nothing beats a clear headed dog that knows exactly what it's doing. Not having been elevated to usefulness through blind drive.


    I feel more and more fortunate to own my dog. He's just a weirdo in some ways :)


    I'd like to see your video Brody.

  • Besides maybe the black GSD I wouldn't take any one of those dogs if you paid me. All I saw there was poor targeting, pressure avoidance, weak commitment and shallow grips. Also dumb handling and stupid decoying.
    Don't even try to compare that bunch of poor mutts to KNPV dogs. It would only show how little you know about protection dogs.

  • Having just watched all of your videos I feel like I'm in the movie ground hog day! Almost every video is a fox of a dog guarding a box. I really don't understand how that shows your dogs capabilities as a strong ppd. You don't have a single video of civil work or even one showing any pressure put on the dog. And furthermore for a Malinios that display of bitework is barely average. You are always the first one to criticize other people's videos, you need to produce a better video before I will even entertain your input. Question why does the decoy have the remote to your dogs E collar?

  • Here's the clip of the test.


    Firstly I was a little dissapointed in the dogs desire to push through the barrier but pleased with his eye contact and intensity once on the bite.


    The reason I had the decoy elevated was for his own protection. On the ground this test was easy for my dog to get the bite but the problem was he was biting feet or way too close to the hands where the suit sleeve ends. We figured elevating the target and holding the barrel from behind would cause more of a challenge and increase safety which it did.


    If I could have done it again I would have told the decoy to not remove the bin until the dog pushed through at him. If he didnt make an attempt I would have put him up for the day and make him watch all the other dogs work to piss him off.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anvaVcwopsU

  • Chad, those vids are of KNPV style box guard training. It's a foundation exercise. The decoy is working the remote to correct for a slow out. He can feel it better then I can see it. Therefore if the dog is starting to release the grip, from the handlers perspective it may not be so evident and an unwarranted correction may be given, whereas the decoy feels the release and is better able to give a proper correction when needed. Again, that is a standard KNPV procedure.
    Thanks for taking time to look at those old vids. I haven't made new ones for awhile and maybe I should.
    My dog weighs in at 62 lbs. soaking wet. I guess you're used to comparing dogs to your big dog and that must seem small. She has a couple of live street bites under her belt, her speed and power are more than enough to get the job done. You'd be surprised how much force a confident dog with the right genetics can generate, even a 62lb fox dog.

  • I am sure we have had this conversation before but Chad & Jim raise an interesting question imo;


    size of dog and bite force generated and related but not the same "man stoppablity";


    personally I think there is little correlation.


    I like smaller dogs for many reasons, some of which are endurance, long term health, longer working life, practicality, quicker maturity.....in a decent smaller/medium size dog I believe you gain a lot and lose nothing other than deterrent factor among the clueless.


    a big dog with the same traits described more common in smaller dogs however is a beautiful thing, but like most things of beauty is rare.


    jmo

  • We have spoken about this many times and for me it boils down to this assuming that both ideals are determined and have the necessary goods between the ears:


    Protection dog=dog overwhelms man immediately serious injuring him thus eliminating threat fast without handler involvement or risk to him.


    Police Service Dog=fast to engage thus changing the man's path of movement (or intention) allowing for handler to assist in controlling the situation.


    This doesnt mean that there arent exceptions in both areas. By this I mean that there are Mals out there that are physically strong enough to do what a PD is supposed to do and there are larger dogs out there that are very good PSD's. A dog that does not meet the definition of PD in my opinion cannot be called a legit protectiion dog as it is more of a distraction dog if the dog needs help from the handler to subdue the threat. Too many people out there call their biting dog a PD and the fact is that it is not. It's a nice working dog that will bite someone.


    In general-smaller dogs (although a 60lb dog is still above average size) that bite are much more readily available to purchase. Larger dogs like a Rott, DA, Presa, Dobe, or American Bulldog that bite serious are much harder to aquire.


    I know and respect many handlers that absolutely prefer a mal or GSD as a protection dog and I have had many debates about this very topic with them. Having caught these people's personal dogs I can't disagree that their dogs arent capable but I will always come back to the choice of having the extra weight and biting power a larger dog would have-even one of the same breed. If my dog was 10lbs heavier and an inch taller he would have that much more stopping power-it's pure science/physics not opinion.

  • Jim, thank you for explaining the e-collar situation. I will be the first to admit I know nothing about KNPV or what exactly it is or what training methods they use. Just after reading some of your views on other videos I was expecting a hellacious dog. Don't get me wrong she might be but I didn't see that in these videos. IMO solid drive and good gentics gives the small/medium dog a greater advantage than one without, but it doesn't give them a stronger bite or more strength.


    When I think of my dream ppd,I could see someone breaking in my home and my dog would be large enough, strong enough, tough enough to hold and completely control the nastiest of intruders. Meanwhile I would have time to grab my gun, while my wife calls the cops and it turns out to be a good night. I have taken bites from malinios,shepards,and Rottweilers. You cannot even begin to compare the bites. Dan's Rottweilers bite so f*cking hard I honestly think it could crack a bone. And that is what I want to happen to that guy trying to harm me and my family...

  • that is my question, I don't se the evidence that a big head or any other body part automatically = more bite force or stoppability.


    the deciding factor imo is the drive and commitment behind it.


    most breeders breed for bigger dogs cos they are just bigger period.


    people tend to prefer big in general and americans imo idolise big.


    I just want effective and am not going to blind myself to my own preconceptions.


    a big dog with strong commitment and intentions yes for sure. but if it was that simple we would just measure skull width and say this dog is going to bite harder, I think not.


    just my personal preference I am not trading speed for size until I am about 80yo, a good medium size dog is good enough for me, if I get one bigger or smaller that can do the job, so be it but I will have the dog for what it can do regardless of the size of the package.


    tbh most big dogs I see are rather dopey and half hearted.



    heart trumps size in my book as a general rule, individual results will vary.

  • Chad, if you don't understand KNPV then you probably expect dogs to pull on the bite. That's what your mololosserrs do. Lie Dans Rotts and your Hog Hound. Even GSD's are bred and trained to pull on the bite for IPO sport.
    KNPV line dogs are bred and trained to drive in to the bite, not pull away from it.
    That's why you're underestimating my dogs bite. You're not familiar with KNPV bite style.
    You don't know what it is you're looking at.

  • Jim, over the years of your participation here I've seen you change into a grumpy/irritable poster. PDF is not a toilet for you to dump your dog frustrations in. What the fuck do you know about how my dog bites? And when you write this

    Quote

    Don't even try to compare that bunch of poor mutts to KNPV dogs. It would only show how little you know about protection dogs.

    in response to me bringing up knpv dogs just to put the other video in perspective, it's insulting. As of now you're taking a two weeks leave from PDF. Use this time to think about whether you get anything positive participating here. If you decide you do and come back, a change of attitude will be expected.