CO's that bite well

  • It seems some of these dogs actually bite with commitment, I hope I got a good one. It seems like nerve sets apart the good biting ones from the bad. For your entertainment....


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty4j2VQ-d7U


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWMFpX4gbX4


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4qmXIeY3r8


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vykk6oScBJE


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtGRGkU8mZU


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6DUS0r76V4


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGrqeXwITKc


    Typical CO hectic, nervy, bite & let go...still seems like it would be effective deterrent in most situations


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci780k8Kg1s


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMWj29k6WaI


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkE5zDD7Qwc

  • I think that there is a solid stock of dogs over there that would produce good biting dogs Matt. It all depends on what your pups parents are like.


    I wasn't much of a fan of the LGD breeds as they are very animal aggressive which usually doesn't transfer well to man work but after looking deeper into the breed types I stand corrected. There's something very un nerving about a 200lbs. animal coming for you that means absolute assault. As far as a centry dog I don't think you could find a better animal. With all the size, fur, and drool that comes with a dog like that it's not my cup o tee for a PD but damn the good one's are flat our scary.

  • Sorry one more, this one is really interesting. A bunch of green dogs being tested hard. I'd be curious what other serious working dog's reaction would be like as a untrained adult like Mals or working quality Rott. All the serious working people of these breeds always train the working stock first before testing hard which I don't blame them, but it would be curious to see how a strong Mal or something would respond without training.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQO02M6ZjFE

  • I think that there is a solid stock of dogs over there that would produce good biting dogs Matt. It all depends on what your pups parents are like.


    I wasn't much of a fan of the LGD breeds as they are very animal aggressive which usually doesn't transfer well to man work but after looking deeper into the breed types I stand corrected. There's something very un nerving about a 200lbs. animal coming for you that means absolute assault. As far as a centry dog I don't think you could find a better animal. With all the size, fur, and drool that comes with a dog like that it's not my cup o tee for a PD but damn the good one's are flat our scary.


    I am no LGD breed expert but from the research I have done and people I have talked to the CO are supposed to be less dog aggressive but sharper with strangers, and the Central Asian Shepherd are supposed to be the ones that have dog fighting in the back ground. They are supposed to be more dog aggressive and more stranger social than the CO. The Russian lineage CO are supposed to be the most man aggressive with a lot of "active aggression" as they refer to it in the LGD community. I got mine from a Russian native who lives in the states and rents out his dogs and sets up the containment systems to business & warehouses for guard use, he also breeds and sells pups as well.


    Mine is pretty low dog aggressive, when we first got him as a tiny pup he light up my adult bulldog when she got close to his food. The next time she was around him she returned the favor and he just rolled over in a submissive position and pissed himself. They get along fine now but at first even though he was tiny he had some social aggressive issues with the other dog. I still cant play tug with the bulldog in front of him, and I still sometimes he likes to food guard his bowl if I drop something extra yummy and new in there, but its very manageable now if I yell at him he immediately stops being stupid with the bulldog.


    Had a submissive adult lab meet him last week on our daily walk that was off leash, I could tell he was thinking about it but soon chilled out when he saw the dog meant no harm. The two walked side by side the rest of the walk, Bear still was watchfull and not trusting of him but was not aggressive. Might change when he is mature though. If I would have been walking my bulldog with a off leash adult dog I'd be looking for a tree branch to use as a break stick.


    The size isn't bad as he spend most of his life just laying around super lazy dog. The fur and the drool is pretty over the top though. He slobers about 4-8 ounces of water on our kitchen floor every time he drinks water, cleaning that up several times a day isn't fun. When he is shedding we don't bring him inside much and rarely bring him over on the carpeted area in the house. We even have to sweep and dust the outside deck and railings. Fur gets knotted pretty easily if you don't keep up on brushing him at least once a week. Potty trained really easy though.


    I wouldn't own one if I lived in a populated area. My 4 and 5 year old kids and wife love him though, just a big ole ham that loves tummy rubs.

  • This is very cool thread. I love the videos, thanks Matt for putting all that together here. I also enjoyed your telling of what it's like to live with your pup.


    I have many thoughts about this kind of dog, some shallow and obvious, others more profound :) But for now I just want ask one thing; What do you mean by tested hard? Referring to the last video.

  • This is very cool thread. I love the videos, thanks Matt for putting all that together here. I also enjoyed your telling of what it's like to live with your pup.


    I have many thoughts about this kind of dog, some shallow and obvious, others more profound :) But for now I just want ask one thing; What do you mean by tested hard? Referring to the last video.


    From the best I can tell the last video looks like a breeder who has a yard full of dogs and wanted to test his stock. To me they all appear to be young adults probably around breeding age of 2 years plus or minus. My guess is also they all probably never seen a protection training session before. By tested hard I mean a dog that has never been "protection trained" or prior agitation sessions to build up confidence is being tested for attacks on handler and trespassing on property. Not tested like the first session of agitation where the dog is agitated from a distance and then the decoy runs away. I have never even or heard of a breeder whether its Mals, GSD, rotts, bandogs or whatever test their dogs like this without having previous training sessions whether it be something more serious like Kohler style or schutzhund / psa style or a combo of both. Normally its several sessions gradually building in intensity and seriousness if not year or so before a dog is tested in a real world scenario which would then be seen as proof of successful training and solid genetics.


    The problem with that is how much of it was from ALOT of training with great trainers and how much of it was from genetics?


    To me it was testing pretty hard for a green dog, no they didn't always put on much physical pressure on the bite but some scenes there was that though. It seems the CO's way of handling high physical pressure on the bite is to either switch the grip up higher on the chest or attempt to get the face to cause the attack to stop by causing more damage. Or by switching its grip to a position where it is harder for the man to keep hitting the dog. Obviously the first is more preferable.


    Just throwing thoughts out there not trying to promote the CO as superior to other breeds, if it was up to me I would still have my KNPV Mal but the wife couldn't tolerate his over the top destruction of our house and property anymore. But I am enjoying my CO a lot though, still aint no Mal. But even then my old Mal was a complete terror by 2 years of age after a lot of serious training I even question what his response would be at 2 years of age with no agitation training. He defiantly did posses a lot of defensive drive and was naturally very unsocial since a pup but he defiantly preferred to switch over to prey drive when the man got close even when a situation he started out in defense. So I cant help but wonder without agitation training to build his confidence in defensive drive would he have curred out when pushed hard in a real life situation like this? Also how effective would his genetically insane prey drive would have been without training to build confidence that men are nothing more than rabbits?


    As a breeder I wouldn't have risked running my dog off the field with the dog being off leash like some of these tests on green dogs did. At that point it would be very hard if not impossible to erase that experience of being put into avoidance and the dog would effectively be ruined for protection or sport competition. So yes I find it interesting the way they test these dogs compared to what I have been exposed to thus far.


    Just to clear things up I have no intentions of ever breeding a dog again.

  • IMO a dog with a strong natural guardian instinct is always better than one having needed suspicion and confidence building. One of great size and armored with thick fur that can soften a blow and detour teeth is a plus. Another thought that I have is a hard wired dog would rather go at the face than a arm all day. I bet if you muzzle your dog and let him go at a decoy he will lounge at his face first. Any chance my dog has he will take a face shot and as a result sometimes there is a sub par looking bite on a limb waiting on a opportunity to get what he really wants. But to those who say that if there is not a full mouthed bite there is lack of commit, is completely false. That might be true with more traditional working bred dogs but not all dogs. If your dogs wiring is similar to mine no socialization removes any filter that could stop him from making a mistake. Literally creating a monster. But from your description of your needs it sounds like your on the path to getting what you want. Good luck and I looking forward to seeing his progress:)

  • Matt, I think you put forth some solid points of view. But I disagree about their application to what we see in the videos.


    First I don't believe these are green dogs. I can see it in how they target. These dogs without a doubt had bite training, otherwise they would look as "good" as that. The decoy's shredded bite suits are indicative of something. But in reality with these natural guard dogs what you have is what you get. My experience is that with the ones inclined to guard, training doesn't improve them by much as far as how well they bite. My dad told me that when he did military service in Russia he was stationed near a prison camp. They had two kinds of dogs, eastern European shepherds (kinda like the Russian version of a GSD) and CO. The shepherd were used to control inmates, track and apprehend escaped inmates. The CO were used to guard the perimeter of the prison, there was one chained at every corner, that's all. No one but the kennel keeper could come near the CO.


    IMO the dogs in the videos were not being tested hard. Tested hard is putting the dog in a new location off his property, and sending it on the man from at least 60ft distance. A solid kick to the chest, neck or side before it gets to bite. What will make the dog pass the test is either strong commitment which will have it come in fast enough to not allow the man to leverage a good kick, or prey/fight drive which will make the dog disregard the kick. Then in case the dog came in too fast to be really hit, a good whack on the muzzle with a solid padded stick (not a SCH padded training stick).


    It doesn't matter if the dog had training or not. The test is to know what you have when you believe you have a ready dog. I think the number of dogs that would pass this test without any formal training is extremely extremely small. If they are going to pass then they've been trained inadvertently, like postman training. But whether trained or not the dog that passes this hard test is a very good dog, one of very few. So it doesn't matter if it needed training or not.


    People have the wrong idea about training. Training is just experiences. Experiences happen to the dog whether you like it or not, whether you engage in formal training or not. Coupled with the right genetics a dog will need very few of the right experiences to get it working on a man with serious intensity. People who don't know WTF they're doing spend months and years participating with BS training groups developing dogs that amount to nothing. The truth is you take a genetically capable, mentally and physically mature dog, a handler and decoy that know what they're doing, and you can produce a serious man stopper in 4 weeks.


    Dogs that don't require training and are reactive on their own, are as a rule over the top aggressive when they're strong, or have low thresholds. The over the top aggressive dog is for very few experience people, and it will be a managed dog for the duration of its life, absolutely unsuited for a family environment and any public interaction. A low threshold dog will provide adequate service as threat dog, and may even edge into the man stopper category, but will never stack up against a solid nerve higher threshold dog with good fight drive FOR MAN WORK.


    Bottom line is any one of those dogs in the videos will turn tail and not come back after the first serious stick hit to the head, unless you back them into a corner after. That also includes the face biting natural guardians Chad mentioned. You must have prey drive/fight drive and commitment to withstand serious physical pressure from a HUMAN adversary. All other stories about why the dogs don't bite with commitment are just excuses, fantasies and wishful thinking by dog owners who have never had experiences with serious tough dogs. Granted the dogs are sharp and suspicious which fits within certain parameters of usefulness, but any nervous Chihuahua has that. Adding size and strength in itself gives the dog some confidence and fighting ability, but not enough to put it in the category of a true man stopper, able to work with the same intensity on and off his territory, and possessing the rock solid stability to be able to integrate it into facets of your life that take you outside the dog's territory.


    It's true that to bring such a dog to it's maximum potential a good and willing decoy is required. Many people either don't have access to one or don't have the cash to pay for it. BS training groups are not a substitute. So most people opt for the low threshold "hard wired" natural protector and call it a day.


    With the kind of dog I like, be it a rottweiler, GSD or some mutt, it is possible to get the complete package, natural protector and trained man stopper. I can see territoriality and guarding behavior in 9 week old rottweiler pups that I have right now. But again to bring the dog to its maximum potential at least some experiences working against a man will be required, at least to break the taboo of biting a human.


    Matt, not to take anything away from your beloved furry family members, I do enjoy very much your keen insights into the dogs psychology and working ability, and I'm grateful that you shared so much of it here. I would like to offer that perhaps there may be a rottweiler in your future. Granted it's hard to find a good one, it took me a long time. But when you get a good one, you get rock solid stability, a clear head, extremely high prey/fight drive like the bull dogs, but with the directability/willingness/trainability of a herder, and strong defensive drives. Size and power, a quiet dog until the occasion calls for it. Little to no slobber, very manageable shedding, dog still looks good shaved. Reputation is a deterrent. And just a generally fun very playful dog that you can take anywhere.

  • Dan, are you saying that a dog that will engage a man naturally will back out of a fight from a stick hit to the face faster than a dog that has needed training? If there is any wishful thinking for ones protection dog it's not from me.

  • What about this analogy, mike Tyson is a born warrior who first learned to fight as a kid thugging on the street. Always was and will be a warrior, training and lots of it made him a better fighter both in comp and on the street.


    People that join clubs do it both for social reasons and they just like training for the joy of training precision and control.

  • Training is essential for any dog regardless of its genetic inclinations. I just feel that a good natural guardian WITH training will always have the edge regardless of breed.

  • Dan, are you saying that a dog that will engage a man naturally will back out of a fight from a stick hit to the face faster than a dog that has needed training? If there is any wishful thinking for ones protection dog it's not from me.

    Depends on what you call engage. If by engage you mean an untrained dog putting on aggressive displays at people who stop to say hi to you in a public place, and if the dog that required training has the right genetics for man work, as a general rule the answer to your question is yes. What you are calling a natural protector simply has lower thresholds. Outwardly it appears as if it's a more suitable candidate for a PD, and in some situations he will be justifiably reactive where the higher threshold dog won't do squat. But the lower thresholds will express themselves when the pressure is on. Unless as I stated it's an over the top aggressive dog, but you haven't seen one of those yet they are rare. People who don't have a clue about dogs apply your line of thinking to something like Faisal's dog, they think it's a tough dog because it puts on an aggressive display. When in reality the dog is insecure and if someone were to call its bluff the dog would go into avoidance, as I predicted and you found out. There are varying degrees of this and some dogs with lower thresholds can take more pressure, but never as much as higher threshold dog.


    You're talking like there's something magical that's going to kick in and give the dog extra courage and fighting ability against a man, when the dog feels there's threat to his beloved family. An analogy is training in MMA, and in your club there is a guy that's better than you and you regularly lose to him, and saying that in some fictitious situation if this guy would be hurting your child or wife ie. you'd be super motivated, that you'd be able to take him on and win (if all other conditions were equal) because.. why? It's all about drives and thresholds, what you see is what you get. And a dog can have very different thresholds when dealing with pressure from a man or pressure from an animal.


    A high threshold dog that's trained and proven in bitework, there's simply nothing you'll be able to do to discourage it from biting you short of shooting it dead. If the dog doesn't have a good balance of drives it's possible that it will not recognize some situations as a threat to its family or property, and will not react at all. But that's not the kind of dog I want to own.

  • When I said engage I meant more along the lines of a green dog being able to pass a Koehler test not a dog that displays aggression un warranted due to lack of confidence and insecurities. I understand what your saying about thresholds, but I can't say I agree completely. I believe it comes down to the individual dog and must be evaluated on a case by case basis. To say that a dog that has a high tolerance for strangers with little to no natural suspicion will automatically always be able to handle pain pressure better from a man more so than one that's naturally suspicious is illogical. Dogos in particular are extremely insensitive to pain with a pain threshold not comparable to any herder and that's a fact. That fact absolutely comes in to play when you have two dogs with equal drive in different breeds. And the myth that if a dog that fights animals well they do not have what is needed for man work has been debunked. I know that this is a topic that we have always disagreed on but it makes for a good debate.

  • I have never seen enough to be convinced that animal aggression and human aggression are very correlated.


    I heard of some sick fucks that test on that principle.


    They never get much credibility in the working dog world re man work.

  • Peter I'm not trying to say that animal and human aggression are correlated in any way. I'm trying to state the fact the there are in fact dogs that poses the ability to work a man and a animal with the same level of intensity and drive. They might be the unicorns of the protection dog world but they are out there.

  • Dan,


    While I agree with most of what you said, I think the ones that were biting well would take quite a lot of abuse before curing, the ones biting really nervy probably not so much. If the dogs in the prior videos had a lot of prior training then I think a whole lot less of them. Like most good protection dogs the man is a whole lot more likely to cur before the dog without a bite suit on. Two good protection dogs I don't think a single man stands much chance, the guy is gonna cur first. That's why most security companies rent out two dogs at a time. I also thinking kicking a 60lb Obama dog in the head and kicking a 150lbs+ dog that comes in low like a bull are two completely different things. I think its a lot more likely to get a CO to cur after it has bit you then to repel a confident one that is bull rushing you.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn-P8df_Mr0


    The dog in this video is advertised as his first session ever. What is interesting in this video as the intial grip is typical bad nervy CO, after he is hit his intensity of biting kicks in as the dog starts to look like he is fighting instead of just biting enof to make the person leave the property. I doubt most CO are like this though.


    Rott was the first dog on my list just couldn't find any good ones, a bunch of BS breeders around me and online too. Even people who advertised working dogs with German pedigrees full of titles and Jeneck dogs too wouldn't even let you work their dogs in person. Find me a good Rott in 3-5 years after my bulldog dies that doesn't go after its own family and I am all ears:D I wasn't in the know enof to know where to look where I would get a good pup for sure so sick of washing pups out. I knew when I got a Mal or CO from good bloodlines I would get a man aggressive pup for sure that would be very sharp full knowing they aren't game until the end like a fighting dog that is bred for gameness. I don't think any breed that wasn't culled on the spot for not being game and bred around this has any legit expectation to not cur if hurt bad enof.


    A lot of things are give and take in life the super low threshold dogs may not be game but there are advantages to them over the high threshold for aggression dogs that will fight to the bitter end. Most notably sharpness. Pretty darn hard to find a dog that will go off on everybody that is passive that is also dead game. To me a dog that is left alone in the house or behind its fence needs to be razor sharp to be counted on, fighting ability comes second after this.


    I dug all these CO biting videos out as a idea to what I can reasonably expect my dog to perform when it comes time as CO's arent know for biting well so I can gauge how good or bad he is for his breed. Not trying to promote this as a superior breed, I thought I would just share as I don't think most people including myself have much experience with how this breed performs. Plus its kind of fun to watch as they bite way different than most typical protection dog videos that you see.

  • This is probably the best thread of discussion on this forum I've seen in years guys.


    Awesome points of view and debate from everyone.

  • MattK wrote:

    I don't think any breed that wasn't culled on the spot for not being game and bred around this has any legit expectation to not cur if hurt bad enof.

    I couldn't agree more with this point. Being that it is impossible to have your personal dog tested to the extreme limits all you can do is speculate. Rotts, dobes, mals, gsds, were not created with the any purpose of fighting or handling pain. When you compare their drive to a bulldog you better be able to back it up. Here are a few videos that I've found highlighting their low pain threshold. By the looks of it these idiots did not have true game bred or trained dogs, but it's a generalization. These videos are a little graphic but all dogs live with no major injury. I do not condone this and personally think it's disgusting but when you have nothing else to judge by but "rules and theories" videos like this is what I'll tend to believe in when trying to figure out how much pain a dog will take before tapping out.


    ??VS??????
    80????


    Let me also clarify that this a generalization I know there has been psd and war dogs that have fought while stabbed or shot but I would consider them a rarity.

    The post was edited 3 times, last by Chad ().

  • Firstly, those two videos are back yard Chinese trash fighting practice dogs Rotts) against real game dogs. The second Rott was scared shitless before the pitt was sent on him and his owner deserves to live in feces for the rest of his unnatural life.


    There are of videos of large breeds, including Rotts, literally killing Dogos and Pitts within 3-5 minutes without getting a scratch. It's not the norm, but it does happen and always depends on the dog and situation ect. Most of the fight vids out there like these are practice fights for one dog against another to build confidence. Its the not even close to the same thing as pro fights in eastern Euro countries with LGD's and the southern States with Pitts. I understand why you posted the vids Chad and I do agree that there are correlations between dog fighting dog and dog fighting man but those videos are not good examples of Rotts not being able to tolerate pain in a fight because both dogs didn't even want to fight to begin with. I've seen Dogo's screaming for mercy after 5 minutes against a CAO and another vid where the Dogo destroyed every LGD he came across within 2-3 minutes so what does that prove about each breed's ability to tolerate pain in a fight?


    On to the point of testing a dog in a fight with a man..... My personal belief is that a fight to a dog is not as much about pain as it is positioning in the fight. To a dog being put on their back and pounded on is about as much pressure as you could apply and most dogs turn tail and get the fuck out of there if this is done to them. I have personally done this with 6 dogs and only two came out of it still fighting as hard as they could-one Mal and one GSD. My current male also was tested this way-right in a corner on his back getting pounded on hard and he didn't stop fighting. I've worked a couple of other dogs that I thought would pass the test but their owners didn't want to risk their dog failing and having to bring them back up again.


    If anyone knows of any others tests to push the threshold outside of abusive training I am interested to hear.