second leg session

  • Instead of the decoy pulling away from the dog on the bite while the handler is pulling back in the opposite direction, try having the decoy walk backwards with the dog and the handler follows him with a loose leash, this may help to get the dog to start pushing into the decoy. What you are doing is a push / pull reaction and is making the dog jerk backwards.

    The KNPV guys are experts at this. If the dog is chewy while walking behind him with a loose leash you can gently push behind the back of this head into the decoy and calm him down while walking with them. There are other subtle things you can do while walking behind them too.

    Here is a video of the grand sire to the Mal x Dutchy I used to have.

  • watched my dogs take down prey animals bigger than themselves, pulling grips are devastating.

    The fight drains out of the opponent real quick, also takes opponent off balance and to the ground.

    The knpv train a push to minimise damage to opponent, its for police work to get compliance with minimal damage.

  • I don't know about the damage to opponent bit.. In some practical applications the end result will be the same, a human adversary submitting to the dog. But a dog that pushes into the decoy is showing itself to be stronger mentally than a dog pulling away with a half mouth bite. A pulling bite is something handlers settle for rather than aim for. It's indicative of the dog's mindset which is more prey oriented ie. stopping escaping prey, in essence engaging an opponent that the dog knows is stronger than itself. A pushing bite is taking the fight to the opponent with pleasure.

    Sometimes a pulling bite is a training issue, other times it's just how the dog is, you never know until you change the training around a bit to bring out the best in the dog. I offered my advice on how to do this with your dog, like Matt did here, but you don't seem to care because you've progressed to more advanced exercises without addressing the shallow bite, and the dog keeps biting the same way. Because I always look at videos from the perspective of what I'd do to improve the dog, it's hard for me to see past the shallow bite. That's why I wasn't going to comment again, but here I am..

  • Whatever works. If you saw how they train the push from less than 12wo with super friendly decoys marking and rewarding the push I doubt you would still think stronger dogs.

    Biting styles are big genetic component, I prefer the natural torque down dog over the highly trained pusher. As long as the dog counters for a better grip and bites hard.

    Mostly tho I will eventually use harness pressure to assist the dog to sweep decoy off his feet. Decoys don't like it cos the dog controls them and makes them look stupid, decoys like spectacular, so do people watching

  • A dog that's pulling an opponent is at best doing so with the mind set of neutralizing it, over how long a distance will it keep pulling? A dog that's pushing wants to finish his opponent, that's the mindset I want to see.

  • These Dutch dogs are hard and dangerous, don't let their focus on training grip confuse you. There have been plenty of people bitten hard by these things even as tiny puppies, including their own handlers. I know of several experienced handlers who have been put in the hospital by their own dog from these lines.

    The pulling back method with a 70-90lbs shepherd they just don't have the power to take a man off their feet. If you have ever worked a mastiff that approaches 200lbs then yes the jerking back method on the bite is very effective at controlling a man.

  • Just explaining my reasoning cos you asked why, not trying to argue.

    Matt I did say I aim to assist the dog thru harness pressure and leash pressure. Those mals in knpv that survive training are great, however without the entire system of knpv which doesn't exist outside of Holland few ever get that much out of them, context is everything, look past the 2 minute clips.

    Do you think those same dogs have much instinctual basis or a high capacity for training?

  • A dog that's pulling an opponent is at best doing so with the mind set of neutralizing it, over how long a distance will it keep pulling? A dog that's pushing wants to finish his opponent, that's the mindset I want to see.

    Exactly, I have never seen a dog on the winning end of a dog fight moving backwards.

  • Fuk dog fights, I have never seen fighting breeds worth a shit in man work, unless they have had some serious selective breeding as per the American bull dogs, pit bulls are more likely to bite kids running in the playground.

    I doubt anyone is going to back my dog up.

  • Pete, you missed Matt's point.

    Not sure what you mean by back your dog up. I certainly don't think he can be threatened into avoidance. I think he showing very good drive before the bite, the kind I like to see, and I'm pretty sure he'll bite for real. In previous videos however he bit shallow. I just looked again and in these latest leg biting videos it's hard to tell precisely but looks like he's biting deeper. He has to be biting deeper if he can be spun around like that and not let go. If his bite was shallow like before I'd say that he'll let go after the first solid head hit. Whether he'd stay in the game after that is hard to say. I would just do everything I can to see a better grip before I move on. I think together with the better grip you'd see less pulling and more driving into the decoy and shaking. Although it is possible the grip will improve without doing anything different. Missing a bite can have the effect of the dog biting deeper next opportunity it gets.

    Do you think those same dogs have much instinctual basis or a high capacity for training?

    Pete I understand you've never seen a serious one. I knew one in Canada that required minimal training, bad dog by 10 months old, yet a sweetheart with the family's kids. Just like Matt said, handler's calf muscle hanging out in a split second.

  • Dan would you say a dog that looks for a better position to grip has a poor mindset?

    The dog that grips and goes to sleep better?

  • If by going to sleep you mean a dog that shows a lot of intensity before the bite, bites full and hard but just hangs there, he's just thinking "I got him!", and he's happy. There's nothing wrong at this point, it's where you take it from there that matters. I think it's a great place to start.

    How going for a different position reflects on the dog depends on why he's doing it. My rottweiler Wulf I taught to switch. In the beginning he was biting full and hard, it was difficult to make him let go and switch the first time, took a few hits to the muzzle with the other arm. It got easier very quickly, and now if the decoy just raises the other arm he'll switch so fast it's scary. Consequently his bite is not as full as before. If someone didn't know he was trained to switch, they'd think less of him.

  • have to agree with all that.

    I like these discussions, I doubt anyone can go away without something to think about re dog training.

    I will say up front I do not heed any comparisons between man work and animal work and as far as dog/dog aggression I find it completely irrelevant and pathetic, not going to change on that.

  • I've stated this before: Dog position in a fight is more important than actual damage in the dogs mind. It's a natural instinct. I have worked 2 KNPV dogs and they were dangerous MF dogs. It's a big difference working a dog that drives into you than one that bites and pulls. They also try to get on top of the bite when they attack to drive you under them. I agree with Dan and Matt that pulling on the bite is less desirable in a protection dog. Pete, your dog puts on a good show and will certainly nail someone but based on the shallowness and his body position it's still saying 10 second fight in a real situation.

    When he bites full, hard, and into the man you can be rest assured he is eager to engage because he knows he can destroy his opponent. You can do all kinds of diff bites with him in diff locations and target areas but his grip has to be worked on first. Maybe find a decoy that can bring it out of him if your current guy cannot. Maybe that's all he'll be and to be honest it's still better than 90% of so called protection dogs out there but saying you prefer him pulling is puzzling. By saying this if he was driving into the man with a full bite you would rather him bite the way he is now?

  • Using knpv analogy, clip you saw was second bite on a new target, first was on front second was on back.....knpb, start at 12weeks train specific target with friendly decoy many times per week until the age my dog started man work....see the different context.

    Further I told my decoy to pull away from the dog as hard ad he could directly away, dog did everything possible, every bit of muscle to pull him back.

    I'm good with that for that one session.

    Lastly nobody, nowhere knows exactly how their dog is gonna act when the shit hits the fan, that's a fact, refer Whitehouse dogs, I am sure they were purchased showing full pushing grips on a suit.

  • Like I said he appears to be biting better in these latest videos.

    There is some correlation between a dog's willingness to stand up to a challenge from another dog, and from a man, but not how most people perceive it.

    I'm of the opinion you can take a dog like Endor in the video above, not do anything until he's 18 months old, then get him biting with that intensity in 4 weeks of daily training. I truthfully don't understand why they put so much training into the dog if it's as you say Pete. Maybe they just enjoy doing it, I know the dogs do. Some people go to the park and play fetch, these guys do bitework, they have the resources.

    If the decoy is pulling away there's not much left for the dog to do other than put his weight on the man and wrap him up if biting high, or brace/pull backwards if biting low. That's why I don't think a decoy should ever just stand there, it creates the undesirable habit of pulling away.