That was hard to watch. it seems like it took them way too long to grab both dogs by the back legs and pull them apart. How close would you say a few of the people where to being bitten?
Are those dogs in fight drive? Let's see there's prey drive, defensive drive, fight drive,and rank drive. In one of my Leerburg videos Ed Frawley describes fight drive as having the forwardness of prey with the experience of defense. He says that a dog in fight drive has come to see the helper as a fighting partner. From a different source I read that fight drive is not really a drive at all because it's not a behavior that's motivated to preserve the species. Fight drive is fighting for the sake of fighting and therefore should not be considered a drive.
Dan, would you elaborate please?
From what I saw I don't think anyone was at risk of being bit. Such strong focused prey drive usually means a non people aggressive dog, at least in that context.
The aggressive dog in the video is getting a lot of satisfaction out of biting up the other dog. In this drive there's no room for thought of personal safety or injury, and pain tolerance is through the roof. For this dog to stop, other than being physically restrained, the stimulation would have to be very high. There's not much the losing dog can do to provide that kind of stimulation, so the aggressive dog will not stop.
This kind of drive/intensity is normally seen in dogs engaging animals, dogs included. For dogs that are trained to bite people there's usually another element in the equation. I don't know how to break it down/explain it, but the addition of this element results in a somewhat less impenetrable drive ie the dog is more ready to disengage. Possibly it has to do with there always being deep in the dog's mind remnants of its experience being raised by people/past corrections, and at some deep level always perceiving people as belonging to the same social structure as it does, which introduces defense into the dog's psyche thereby decreasing the prey drive.
In any case the video shows the kind of punishment a dog in drive can absorb. While here the drive is directed on another animal, and can be perceived as pure prey drive and therefore not applicable to man work, with the right training and genetic potential some dogs can come close to this intensity fighting a man. Some rottweilers exemplify this trait. I find it to be a bull breed trait more than something you'd see from a herder.
Yes, the bullies have the lock and hold method pretty down pat-no breed comes close to thier level of non quit in a fight with another animal. Transfering that drive onto man work from a breeding perspective is very difficult. I dont believe there's enough stock and experience to replicate it on the level game dog breeders have over the centuries.
Fight drive to me comes from the dogs willingess and desire to engage a fight. From what I have seen this seems to be more of a decision based on intelligence and confidence rather than an impulse in the dog. A dog with strong fight drive seeks engagement on a threat and believes he can win the fight and dominate the challenger which is why they will fight through the defensive blows of the attacker. Rotts excell at this because by nature they are a very rank driven dog. The rank drive combined with the desire to win at all costs is why they make good dogs for man work. Only those who know the dog really have an idea of the dogs level of confidence in a fight through its training sessions and its overall temperment in it's day to day life.
To get a dog like you have to get a dog with parents who deomnstrate the self assuredness needed along with doing proven bite work. After this the upbringing is absolutely critical. An abused , neglected, or poorly raised pup will never grow up to be a supremely confident animal against man. In the first 18 months of the dogs life it's critical to expose the pup to situations and experiences that it feels safe and secure. I made my mistakes in my early years but have learned to be in control of every single interaction my pups have so that I can preserve and build up their "ego" for when the time comes to work for real.
Bringing the confidence out of a well bred/raised dog through training is relatively easy if and when you get to that point. In my experience most dogs that show that type of potential have been so messed up by the time I work them it's to late. The small few that do demonstrate the real fight drive are an absolute joy to work and keeps my passion fueled.
Guys, my pup will be here in a few days, and I was wondering if you wouldn't mind giving me a few tips on how to raise a working puppy? Not asking for training tips but rather just some basic info on how to raise the pup. Should I let her run around with my other two dogs in the backyard? Provided she's safe of course. My tentative plan is to keep her separate from them in an x pen. I also plan on following Leerburg's advice on socializing her by taking her paces but not allowing people to touch her. Anyway.. .Do you guys have a tip or two please. Thank you
Maybe I should explain my goals for the dog. Well, I'd like the dog to guard the property when I'm at home or away. Also, i want the dog to bite and release on command. I think that's it. I don't need her to chase down anyone nor am I interested in a bark and hold.
There are some pitbulls and bandog / pitbull crosses that will work a human like a dog, they however are extremely rare. I have seen a couple that could not be taught out and also could not be forced off the bite no matter how pressure / abuse applied by the decoy. These dogs would literally pass out when pulling up on the collar until they let go, they would actually go unconscious while still having the suit in their mouth. Wake up puke sometimes start seizing when coming to again and then go right back at it once they fully regained consciousness. I know of three such dogs, one was a OFRN pitbull, one was a whopper pit which is already a bandog and the other was pit x Doberman cross. I worked and seen all three of these dogs worked while given the instruction to see if you can break the dog while on the bite. They could not be broke, and training sessions like this will get pulled from youtube.
I know of a pitbull x bulldog cross that was on a live bite for over 10 minutes and took a enormose amount of abuse way more than was shown in the video. The collar popped off during it all and it ended taking someone reaching in the mouth and sliding the jaws sideways with all their might to pry it off. No amount of various strikes did anything other than injure the dog (including hits to the head). On top of all the physical things it endured from the people trying to get the dog off this dog was also being bit in the rear leg by a bulldog the entire time. This bite actually exposed the femor bone on the dog's rear leg.
I sold a different whopper bred pit (mastiff x pit) to a small shipping firm in Chicago that was getting broke into almost nightly. I got a call almost a week later that the dog was found dead one morning with its jaws still clamped on someone's ripped off thumb with a bloody screw driver laying several feet next to the dog. This was a 40lbs dog that was so unsocial it had to delivered it in a crate wearing a muzzle. This was the only dog I have ever owned that I could not train it to out on a decoy.
A dog that is not dead game in my experience when tested really hard will transfer if its a good dog, let go and try and flank you if its a weak dog, or let go and go into avoidance ie.... worthless cur.
Its worth argument that a dog that transfers will last longer against a man than one that is dead game and continue to take abuse until it dies on the bite even though most people would consider a dog that transfers to be a weaker dog.
That's a wicked post Matt-thanks for sharing your experiences.
Do you think all redirected bites are out of weakness? I always atributed this trait to a bit of prey, as in an object moving while in the fight needs to be attacked just how a Pitt will let go of a hold to grab a leg as it sees this as a way of disabeling it's oppontent to gain the upper hand. Some of it a learned behavior from experience and some an instinct.
I'm not talking nipping, crazy bites from a nervy dog-I mean a hard full mouth and re gripping a different area that is more appropriate to attack in order to gain control of fight. Some dogs will let go of a leg bite and go for for your face if you're a decoy and in my experience you have to have your shit together before you work a dog like that because you know it's coming and really fast when it does. I don't see this as a weak dog but one that wants to inflict the most amount of damage it can to win.
Maybe you've seen something I havent-Just want to know where you're coming from so that I can learn.
The type of transfer I am talking about is a fighting tactic, ie the pain stops or I get the upper hand in the fight if I go after the arm beating me. Or I let go and bite the opponent somewhere to cause more damage, both are done because the dog is feeling insecure about his current bite / current situation in the fight. These are still hard bites. I like these dogs by the way, they are thinking tactically and they have courage to stay in the fight and take a lot of abuse. But I believe their threshold to go into avoidance will come sooner.
I am not talking about in the crazy hectic prey dog transfer due to multiple moving objects nor the nervy type like a bad CO where they aren't biting hard or are transfering further away from the man. I am referring to like you mentioned transfer bites that are full on efforts. I have never approached the transfer via the two ball / prey method, I don't care to either.
I worked a different pit x Doberman that hurt a man bad by regriping into the groin of a decoy in a suit. It got a huge reaction from the guy as he was hurt bad and the dog remembered it for the rest of its life. Every decoy had to be aware of it because given the chance the dog would always look for your groin, and every bite from this dog was hard. This dog did it not to protect himself from further damage but because it wanted to inflict more pain, I worked a American Bulldog that wanted to go after your face for the same reason. These type of dogs are coming from the same place mentally as the dog that transfers to the arm or leg that is beating them.
Interesting posts Matt, thanks.
I think you mean deep game not dead gameQuote
dead game is a dead dog. imo the worst title a dog can get. 98%of the time it means the owners ego was to big to realize he should have picked up and came back.
It's questionable how much of the big picture a dog that will not let go sees. The next step after assuring myself that a protection dog in training has a very strong and committed bite, and as such is genetically correct for the work, is to teach it to transfer. When they learn to transfer for the right reasons it is a beautiful thing. To someone who doesn't know how the dog was to start with, it may appear the dog is weaker for it.
A bulldog that can't be taught to transfer or is too difficult to be taught to transfer when biting a man, is overall not the kind of dog I want to own. I want an intelligent dog.
Thanks for the claification Matt-I see what you're saying and agree.
As for the groin biting dog....damn!