Out

  • My 14 month old shepherd only seems to want to out at the field while training. When we are at home or the local park he holds on to the tug for dear life. I have ti back tie him in order to get an out. Does anyone have any advice?

  • What technique do you use?


    Is he scared you will keep, this is learned.


    Easiest way I know is to lock it to your knees and bring your hands as close together as possible so the tug has no movement even when the dog pulls.


    Freeze that position until the dog eventually releases and he will then immediately give him bite, the out just restarts the game.


    Have a separate word for game over and give dog a pat.


    Takes some repetition now he already has bad habits. Never seen a dog the freeze (dead prey) method doesn't work on.

  • Zking - Dans advice is good. If you do it harsh enough your dog will instantly learn.


    A more subtle approach would be to try a new toy, one which he will want to retrieve and not chew - try a hard plastic frisbee.


    Once you throw it, chances are he will retrieve it and drop it at your feet (if he doesn't - ignore him until he does) because he wants to keep the game going. If he does drop it - start timing the out with his drop, progressing to saying the out before he drops it.


    Eventually, transfer the frisbee for the tug, the association of keeping the game going and clearly understanding the verbal command on the release should then be embedded.


    What your experiencing is very common, many sport disciplines are reluctant to teach the out from day one - fearing it will impact on the quality/intensity of the bite.


    Good luck.


    Regards
    Gee

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Gee ().

  • I agree with Dan,


    Nothing drives me more nuts than a dog not outing when Im working him as a decoy. Having a handler drag or choke a dog off a bite is ridiculous IMO. If the dog wont out-he doesnt get to bite in my books.


    In 15 years of working with PD's I have never had a dog that didnt out on the first command 99.9% of the time. If they did not I used Dan's apporach and it was extremely unpleasant to the dog. The way I have trained every dog is simple when they are pups I use a game such as the one Gee mentions with two toys or even just one but as a handler you have to have excellent timing. The pup quickly realizes that out isnt a matter of ending a game but starting a new one.


    I believe that like all obedience it is a matter of respect for the handler. No out means that the dog simply sees the reward of unloading or possessing higher on his list of priorities than obeying the handlers commands.

  • Out is a matter of respect - especially if you the handler/owner are the one with the toy or sleeve the dog is holding on relentlessly. If above suggestions fail. Try this:
    Say OUT, give him 3 seconds ( every time exactly) and if he is not outing correct him on pinch 4x hard and fast into the direction of the sleeve on your arm or into the toy. If he does not out repeat another 4 x and increase hardness of the correction. Repeat until he outs. Then immediately reward him with more play.
    To people who think that corrections are too hard I'll tell that if the dog is not outing then he obviously does not think so. If he outs then i stop corrections. Thus it is up to the dog . ;) 
    I have learned this from Ivan Balabanov.

  • Out is a matter of respect - especially if you the handler/owner are the one with the toy or sleeve the dog is holding on relentlessly. If above suggestions fail. Try this:
    Say OUT, give him 3 seconds ( every time exactly) and if he is not outing correct him on pinch 4x hard and fast into the direction of the sleeve on your arm or into the toy. If he does not out repeat another 4 x and increase hardness of the correction. Repeat until he outs. Then immediately reward him with more play.
    To people who think that corrections are too hard I'll tell that if the dog is not outing then he obviously does not think so. If he outs then i stop corrections. Thus it is up to the dog . ;) 
    I have learned this from Ivan Balabanov.



    Do you train with Ivan regularly or do you attend his seminars? Ivan is a top notch trainer.


    I'm thinking that there are other methods for teaching the out of toy than prong corrections. I'm sure it can be done in a much easier fashion than pronging the dog 4 times? Over a toy that seems a bit harsh? I agree on a sleeve or decoy for a dog that already knows what out means. Not to teach the out the out command.

  • Yeah Ivan is a top sport mal trainer, would love to meet him.


    Yup, he is a top sport trainer and also breeds some seriously nice Malinois. I have a couple of friends that regularly travel to Florida to train with him. They are also into sport, competing and breed and work Malinois.


    There is a lot of good stuff to be learned from sport people like Ivan, even if you don't do sport with your dogs.

  • Perhaps, but you'd have to know how to sift through a lot of inapplicable BS if you're into dogs that work in the real world.

  • I suppose you could be right.


    But, high end obedience while maintaining drive, power and correct work is good in any venue. Obedience is the basis for everything, bite work and control, handling even tracking has an obedience component. A good handler and a good dog are similar in almost any venue, whether it is work or sport. Having some experience in both, I can see the benefits to the real world working dog.


    I do not need absolute precision and focused heeling for my partner, but I do need the control. Guys like Ivan show us what is possible to achieve.


    I hope this isn't a sport vs work thread, but most sport dog handlers can out their dogs better than most real working dog guys. I do make a distinction between a real working dog such as a Police K-9 or MWD vs the PP people out there. Hope that doesn't chap anyone's hide. In my experience the vast majority of PP dog types are not doing more than sport stuff anyway. The training is not much different than PSA or even IPO.


    I will slowly step away form the keyboard as I can only imagine the folks with the "PP" dogs getting irate. I'm sure their is a small group of serious people with excellent trainers really doing PP correctly. I have only seen or spoken to a few. The rest, well not so much. This post is not designed to offend anyone, as I think working a dog in any venue is great stuff. I just see a lot of folks doing stuff and thinking they are really training a "PP" dog, when in reality it is sport based stuff they are doing.

  • high end obedience while maintaining drive, power and correct work is good in any venue.

    I'm not sure what you're saying here. My perception of the purpose of this kind of obedience work ie. artificially raising the dog's drive with a ball for example, is only for flashy obedience. Are you suggesting that the primary purpose is to make sure the dog can be controlled while in any drive? If that's the case I disagree because ball drive is completely different than "I want to kill that other dog" drive or "I want to chase that car drive" etc. Those situations need to be worked on an individual basis. No amount of ball obedience will prepare the dog for command performance in those situations.


    I have a hard enough time keeping my dog out of drive, which is basically my objective. I want it walking at heel burping with boredom. But if I can't achieve that I'll settle for ears back like it's afraid. Better than the alternative trust me.

  • Respectfully, I differ with that. Obedience is obedience, control is control. I can walk my dogs down the street and they will not react to other dogs or any other stimuli if I say "heel."


    I don't know what the alternative is? My dogs can remain happy and be completely under my control. I do it daily with some pretty drivey dogs and I like them in drive. :)


    We shouldn't confuse "ball drive" with obedience and control, one is just the stepping stone to achieve the other.

  • I can walk my dogs down the street and they will not react to other dogs or any other stimuli if I say "heel."

    This is the normal rebuttal and I'm not here to ask anyone to prove it, I just accept it at face value. I simply maintain that if the handler making this statement employed ball training then:
    1. The dog is under good control in spite of the ball training not because of it. In other words additional training without a ball was done, that would've achieved the goal irrespective of the ball training.
    or
    2. The dog is not particularly difficult, perhaps possessing a high degree of willingness.

  • Glad to hear I'm normal! I don't get that a whole bunch. ;)


    You don't train with any rewards? Or a better question would be, and it is a serious question, how do you reward your dog?


    I'm not sure where this disconnect comes from with handlers that have an issue with the ball? Do people dangle the ball like a carrot on a stick in front of their dog's nose and the dog works for the carrot only?


    The ball is one piece of the puzzle, one tool, just as the leash and various types of collars are tools.

  • Should a dog be rewarded for not jumping on people? Assuming this is a behavior you don't approve of.


    If you run fast without paying attention and hit a tree resulting in pain, is that a good way for you to learn to be careful next time and avoid hitting a tree? Will you have bad feelings for the tree after? Will you be sad for a long time? Would it have been a better lesson if someone amped you up/distracted you with a ball beforehand?


    For a dog obedience/control is about what not to do. Sit means don't keep your ass up. Heel means don't be in the other positions. Life itself is enough of a motivator to keep us going when we are faced with boundaries and limitations. We find a way to negotiate those boundaries and limitations, so do dogs with no adverse effects. If the dog gets down about training (which I keep short) I simply use the environment as a motivator to bring him back up ie. I give him the release cue, let him sniff around for a minute, and back to training. I see no need for a toy or treats. There absolutely must be a bond between the handler and the dog. But then I don't teach the dog in a classroom or an empty field. I teach the dog in its normal environment, just like going for a walk.


    That works for control/obedience which is essentially the dog learning what not to do once a command is given. Training for all obedience commands can be structured this way. It's different when you want to train the dog to do something. But for this I'm sure you know the behavior itself must be the dog's motivation, and the command is not really a command but a release, you are allowing the dog to do what it already wants to do. You can't teach a dog to bite that doesn't enjoy biting. Well you can but you'll get a defensive dog that's not really good for anything. In this case you increase the dog's naturally present drive through association and conditioning. And obedience is practiced while the dog is in that useful (to us) drive. You don't use a ball for agitation right?

  • There are many ways to train "out". Best is to do it as a game. But often some dogs will not "out" for one reason or another and this may be a viable last resort possibility.
    BTW Balabanov is not just sport trainer. I have work with one of his students for years and I know what he teaches and how he trains and I have been at his seminar for LE in Las Vegas where he taught this to a LE dog which the LE officer was not able to out for a year. After about 5 minutes or less this dog was outing well.