A good rott being tested

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiKyq56GizM
    Not trying to over run Ed's vid but watch this one and tell me what you see that is wrong here. I am posing this as a question instead of an attack because I am wanting to try something here to see if we get to the end result the same way.

    I saw this video for the first time just before you posted it Terry. I started wandering around youtube after Eddie posted his vid and there it was. I was going to post it in a separate thread but it's just as good here.


    Lets try to look past the following things;
    That those guys are not experienced protection dog trainers and are just messing around.
    That the situation goes on for too long.
    That the "decoy" is probably a friend of the dog's owner and is known to the dog.
    That the situation isn't set up in such a way that the dog can learn what the behavior of a potential bad guy may be and when use of force on a man is acceptable.
    That the dog may be coming away with the conclusion that anyone that comes in physical contact with his owner can be attacked, even a friend of the owner's.
    That seeing a dog doing what that dog is doing probably naturally, bothers us a little as trainers who spent a lot of time learning the craft, in other words jealousy.


    And then you're left with the fact that it's an awesome natural protection dog, with the size, power and strength of character to stop a man without any training, a great example of what I love about rottweilers. This dog has the supreme self confidence to go against a man without needing to have been agitated and his drive raised. I've watched the other videos from this guy, his rottweilers are not trained for crisp command performance, but they do listen to him, they are under control. In another vid he shows the dog running 4 miles with a bicycle and the dog is looking good.


    This dog will need very little bite training if at all, and a few scenarios to be a great protection dog. That's just the way I would train my rott, mostly in muzzle, except better scenarios. If he had serious bite training this dog would be a monster. Probably not a dog to do french ring with but an awesome beast nevertheless, what a good rott is all about to me. Anybody think they'd like to mess with the owner while that dog is around?

  • Dan it is hard to say if the dog will be a good protection dog from the video until you test it in person. Who knows I shoot a couple of rounds off and the dog might tuck tail and run. Another thing is there is no pressure put on the dog in the video the helper is like a scared bunny rabbit the whole time. Another thing is I like to give dog stingers when their in the fight to see if they will back off or continue to fight through the pain. I do agree that the dog does show natural protectiveness and this dog would be worthy of testing further.

  • OK now we're cookin with gas. Thanks for the reply's Dan and Ed. I truely see both of your points of view on this one. The part of the vid I was looking for to cause the stir, was when the decoy had pretty much surrendered by the fence, he moved to possible leave, possibly reengage the owner, who knows but the dog went right back on him without a word. Let's explore that part of the vid a lil more. Do you guys being experienced PPD trainers think that was acceptable or no? I know these guys aren't "trainers" and alot of what the dog is doing is natural, but is that an exceptable reaction in your eyes?

  • Eddie, you are absolutely right in that a dog can't be judged definitively from a short video. I want to state however that I'm a fan of rottweilers for a long time. I came into the breed just before it's explosion in the 1990's. Consequently I dealt with many rottweilers through my dog training business and owned many as well. I would say that the number of rottweilers I worked with/raised/owned is almost equal to the total of all other breeds I dealt with. So, when I see the reaction of the dog in the vid it sets off a few associations I have through past experiences that give me an instant recognition of what that dog is like. I seriously doubt that if you say BOO! this dog will run. I also feel that it's just so so unlikely that he'll be gun shy. Just a feeling and my :twocents:


    With regards to the vid you posted. I could use the same reasoning you applied to my post ;) :toast1: But I'll just say what I see. I don't think that dog is very strong, he's mostly saying "go away or I'll bite". My rott and many others on the first session would be trying to get out of the window and would be hard to contain. I may post a vid of my dog in one of his first car agitation sessions and first agitation period to illustrate my point. This is not to say that the dog in the vid wouldn't bite and wouldn't be a good deterrent.


    With that said I recognize the training, that trainer is old skool and has good presence, but I have mixed feelings about making that kind of training publicly available for viewing on the internet. I did enjoy watching it though :) I work dogs like that sometimes, but in the case of that dog I'd try to increase his bite drive, he was too defensive for my taste. I'm taking into consideration that it's his "2nd" agitation. Although in that video alone I saw a few different sessions so :confused1: Without a doubt I would work that dog more in prey but not for equipment but rather on the man which requires more movement. That looks like AARP protection dog training to me, you should see the "3rd" agitation session with that dog with yet another decoy that can barely move.


    On the other hand going back to what I was saying on another thread about my dog not barking and lacking a switch, my dog would definitely benefit from this kind of training although I'm pretty sure it will not take him out of his bite mode. The rott in the car vid may not be considered "sharp" on the whole but he's displaying an aggression that I would call "sharper" and that I wish I could bring out of my dog.

  • Hey Dan everyone likes something diffrent in pp dogs. You say your rott. will come out on the first session trying to get the decoy but I beleave you have a video of you and your rott. in a muzzle were the decoy is coming in and you are begging your rott. to protect you and finally when the decoy puts his hands on you your dog does his natural job and protects you. And with the video I showed you in the third session I agree the decoy sucks but I beleave he is trying to learn thats why he is working with Jon.

  • Give me a moment to upload a vid of my dog in the car if I haven't done so already. In the meanwhile see this vid of my friend Roger with a rott that really wants to bite :) BTW www.protectiondog.club was the old address of this forum.


    http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s170/da4095/Dogs/?action=view&current=SargeCloseCall.flv

  • Terry in my training that was not acceptable I like control and in my presence I do not want the dog to show aggression on his own only on command. I do let my dogs show territoral aggression on their property and in my cars just because I do not live in the safest places. But I have enough control to shut it off in need to be also.

  • Hey Dan the video was good but in the beging the dog did not show a whole lot a aggression on the man until the stick was presented then he showed more aggression I would like to see that same aggressioin on the man with no weapon in either hand. And I do not like to talk about videos when their is music involved or replays showing a dog trying to eliminate a stick. Was this the first session of aggitation for the dog or has he been doing it for awhile? Also I am surprised that the window is still there.

  • Hey Dan the video was good but in the beging the dog did not show a whole lot a aggression on the man until the stick was presented then he showed more aggression

    That particular dog is an old hand at bitework so he's a bit jaded you can say :) He would love to bite roger but probably knows exactly when he'll be able to do it. If you watch that video carefully you will realize how much he was fishing roger in by staying as quiet as he did. You can see that the dog timed his lunge just as Roger's brain sent the nerve impulses to his body to start coming in. Fortunately Roger is an old hand too and has very quick reflexes.


    OK here's the vid. I don't know if you read my writeup on my dog so here it is for your reference http://www.protectiondog.club/…etting-a-dog-to-bark.html Basically I have a dog that is very strong, has tons of bite drive for the man with protective gear or without, but will not bark/will not switch into that aggressive display as the rott in Eddie's vid on cue. He will cue easily enough and will stack and watch, but then only lunge and try to bite when he thinks it's time. Often he's trying to fish the decoy in.


    I almost never start off dogs in the car, rather on a tie out, out in the open. The first time I did this with my dog (1st agitation session) he showed tremendous drive to get to the decoy, after a couple of minutes he redirected and started to unload on the tie out which is made of tubular nylon on a spring. I recognized the behavior and realized quickly that this dog doesn't need bite development (many good rotts don't), and that it's going to be very hard to make him bark/make him sharper or more defensive.


    So the very next thing I did on the next session is bring him to the training area along with a crate. I put him in the crate and had the decoy make an approach, the dog turned on like a demon. This indicated to me that he has the defense that I'm looking for only that he will not go into that mode with typical agitation. Right there I decided to do some car agitation to bring out the defense. Followed a couple of sessions of which the video you see is the last.


    In this video what you're seeing is an idea I had of getting the dog to respond to the "watch" cue. I've already seen during a previous day's 1st car agitation that the dog simply waits for the decoy to get closer and makes up his own mind as to when to start barking because it's a frustration bark more than anything. In this state he was not going to make any associations with the "watch" cue. I instructed the decoy to behave nonchalantly and only threaten the dog the instant I give the "watch" cue. The synchronization between me giving the cue and the decoy turning to face the dog is good so it appears like the dog is reacting to the cue but this isn't really the case and I don't think it's a valid training method, I was just experimenting with a dog that I already knew was going to present challenges. Mark is the decoy in this vid, he's a member of this forum although hasn't been on in a while. He can attest to this dog's intensity and the time line I provided in this post, he was the first one to work this dog. You can also see he was hesitant to give him a full bite on that suit in the end ;) You think he was biting hard then Mark, when Greg was working him months later he put two 3mm neoprene sleeves one on top of the other under the bite suit and the dog was still bruising him and breaking skin.


    The rest of what I've done with my dog was never bite development, just failed attempts at getting him to bark on cue. Still he managed to get even stronger through it all.


    http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s170/da4095/Dogs/?action=view&current=R2ndAgitation.flv

  • Nice video Dan, the dog looks good some dogs just dont need bite devolpment its just what I perfer and most of the time I get dogs when their pups so I cant wait for them to grow up so I do bite devoplment with them and it creats more of a bond for us prey/playing together. Nice dog with alot of agression.

  • A mistake that I'm noting now watching the vid of my dog in the car, is having the decoy running away after a barking display. Today I know that it's not a reward for my dog, the decoy should have withdrawn calmly maintaining as much presence as possible. Running away and any kind of prey eliciting movements is working against what I'm trying to achieve with him. I think the oldskool trainer in Eddie's vid would be perfect for my dog.


    Thanks Eddie. I wish you guys lived closer so I could try to solve the barking problem, although I kinda' gave up on it. At least I know the dog will protect for real. I'd really like to do some muzzle work with him along the lines of the other video, just better scenarios. But it would very beneficial for me if he would bark when people come to the house. On the other hand when in the enclosed patio facing the back yard he gets on pretty strong if people show up, especially at night, more so today than what you see in the following vid which was taken 6 months ago (I've had the dog for a year now). I really should build up that fence..


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orthXqUcqYI

  • Back to the beginning of the thread. The dog is certainly pushy and knows what he can get through a huge display (ie a bite from a flinching decoy), not a bad dog, really.


    As far as what you had said, Dan, about the Korung. I know it is different for every breed, but the AD test is as long as you say with a short break in the middle for the judge to notice any ripped pads, ect. Then at the end I believe it is not just bitework (I don't remember if there is any at all) but a short obedience test as well.