Boz Shepherd Testing

  • Hello Group,
    It has been a long HOT SUMMER in Texas, and a long wait until weather cooled enough to be able to get my Boz Shepherds tested. Although I felt they would have immediatley jumped into action, it seemed to puzzle them at first. Much socialization has been done to get them to accept crowds, and all types of people. This was their first testing, and the trainer was impressed. Two of the dogs were able to pull the sleeve from him several times.

    It is still unclear if they have what it will take to function in this type of work, but I am encouraged by their first showing.

    Below is a 18 month old female Geisha, and the other is a 1 year old male.

  • Sadly Dan, I do not have a video camera, and the trainers was not working. Wasnt till I got home that I realized the $1,200 camera I have takes video,,,, just have to figure out how do do it.

    In a week or two, we are going to meet back up with two trainers to pressure them. And will have some video at that time.

    What is your impression for a first "testing" session. She was able to wrestle the sleeve from him on 3-4 occasions, once with him using the stick to get her to let go. Was lunging out after him so fast and hard, that she flipped when she hit the end of the cable.

  • I can see you have no experience or understanding of this work but that's OK. The objective in training is not to get the dog to pull the sleeve away from the decoy. Also you'd never use the stick to get the dog to let go at this point of the training. I see the decoy is holding a plastic jug, probably with stones in it to make noise, and a whip in the same hand, not the thing to do at this point if what you're doing is training. What exactly were you trying to do according to the decoy? Looks nice for a young bitch that's never been worked.

  • Basically with my lack of knowledge, I am at the mercy of what someone with more experience tells me. My objective was to have the dogs tested, to see if they had potential for this line of work. Many people are telling me that they are to young to be worked with like this.

    Just to clarify, he never struck the dog with the stick. More of a motion at the one point when the dog was wrestling for the sleve. She would carry it back to me as if it was a prize.

  • Dog looks really nice. It'd be a shame if some decoy didn't bring it to its full potential, never mind messed it up. Sounds like she's got a surprising amount of prey drive, also evident by the full bite on the sleeve. Beautiful bitch, I'd be interested in testing her out, putting just the right amount of pressure to see if she's got strength, and bringing her forward at the same time. I have a feeling these dogs mature fast, so not too young.

  • Dan,
    The maturity thing is something that confuses me. As they will start chasing off threats at 11 weeks. Act like a grown dog with any perceived threat, then revert back to a puppy and play. One man that I imported one for has Protection Worked with many breeds, and he is shocked at how early they exhibit the behavior.

    I truely do not want to mess them up. And do want to find out their full potential.

    I am getting many different directions of advice on them. From they are "Avoiding" scrap them, to they are way to young, to ,,,,, I am confused at this point.

    I would be willing to send you a free pup in the near future if you truely wanted to work with them. I do want to find out their potential,,, and as I am coming to realize, there is a thousand opinions out here.

    So I might be better off spreading out my "EGGS" into different baskets

    She looks like a LION on the AMBUSH to me.

  • That is exactly what I meant. With the LGD breeds and some molossers, when they are good guardians it's hard wired in their temperament, and begins to express itself very early on. But to an extent this is just sharpness and suspicion, no different behavior than what a yappy little toy companion dog would exhibit, but tempered by inherent stability when it's a good dog. The big question is does the dog have the backbone to stand up to threat/pressure when it is escalated. Beyond initial testing with just enough pressure, taking into consideration the dog's age, sex and experience, to make sure the dog has potential to meet your future expectations, the dog should undergo formal training. Training should be viewed as providing the dog with experiences which it will perceive within the context of the environment in which it will be required to work. More specifically in the case of a protection dog the experiences should increase the dog's suspicion of people behaving in a certain way, make it understand that it's allowed and encouraged to show aggression in certain situations, and raise its confidence level to the point where the dog knows that he will always win in a fight against a man. The golden rule to achieve this is you never increase pressure on the dog unless you're sure that it's going to bring it forward and make it stronger. This can actually be done at very young age as long as the decoy is reading the dog correctly. There is a fool proof training system that achieves this and it's The Koehler Method of Guard Dog Training. Read it and if you understand it you will immediately be a step ahead of most protection dog "experts".

    The problem as I see it with many LGDs is that the owners tout them as super protection dogs (the truth is there are few good protection dogs in any breed). This makes knowledgeable people in the field of protection, who work with the conventional breeds and understand the pressure they can take, tired of the hype about the guardian breeds, and want to prove to the owner that the dog is not so tough as they make it out to be. Often this is true and dog is demonstrated to fail/go into avoidance. Other times instead of working the guardian breed in an appropriate way and giving it a chance, they subject the LGD to the type of training experience they would expect a herder to react favorably to, and make the dog fail. These dogs are not supposed to be happy sleeve biters. They're not supposed to track a criminal, do a building search, and apprehend him. But they will react on their own and dissipate a situation, and perhaps save your life, when a super trained biting dog will just sit there and do nothing. The good ones will not back down from a fight, and will bite up a man real bad. There are dogs that can do both but they're really hard to find. Personally with my lifestyle I have no use anymore for the big prey drive, I have a dog now that has too much of it and it's a chore. I'm not a cop or security guard, and I don't play dog sports. I need a dog with a medium activity level that reacts to stimulus, not constantly tries to invent it. That said from the pics the bitch seems to be showing enough prey drive for good bitework. Everything is speculation though until I see the dog.

  • I don't think I can add much to what Dan has said, but I wanted to say good luck and gorgeous dogs :)

  • I would like to ask a question of the group.

    Why is there so many people with Ugly Viewpoints and completely Baseless Comments on so many of the other forums?

    This Forum has by far been the most polite.

    Even though I came in to the Protection Forums to ask for help, I feel like RAW MEAT in a Wolf Pack! And much of it is obsurd statements lacking any research or forethought. Attacking every aspect of me and the dogs.

    Have to say, I am truely confused and disappointed with all but this forum. Just trying to understand the mentality, and to see if it might be something par for the sport.

  • List the forums you've experienced. I'm familiar with most of them and will be able to give you an idea the kind of people you will find in each and why they say what they say. I no longer participate or read any dog forum other than this one. Unless I'm searching for information on something like a dog health matter.

  • Boz and Kangal shepards are amazing. I have seen them performing like champions in the bloody sports that both the turkish and afgans use them for. They show true grit and readily attitude towards the "task" that his master gets them into. They show an aggressive demeneaor that suggests they are protecting instead of fighting just for the sake of it. That´s a breed I would be very interested to work with in the future. Ask what do you want from your dogs and look for the right man to help you achieve your goals. Dan would be my pick. Thanks for sharing your experience, passion and hope.

    "Every dog, we are told, has his day, unless there are more dogs than days." B.M.

  • TonoA,, send me a message, I would like to talk with you about your observations.

    I wish Dan lived closer to myself. I offered him a pup,,,, And the offer still stands!!!

    Truthfully I understand the Boz will probably not excell at the Bitesports, or be able to be trained to a level like the Herding types. But I thought they might be able to fill a special segment of the Protection Dog Work.

    I am just searching for different types of work for them to do. To allow future selection of work proven dogs. Allowing them to degrade in both health and temperament being bred as pets would be a disservice to the breed.

    Have some friends that use their Kangals to hunt Boar in VA and NJ. This is another area of work that will weed out the weak. Their same dogs also guard their homes, goats, chickens, and cows. Will go chase and catch 300# boar, and sleep with the baby goats.

    the other forum was So many negative statements, lacking any level of research or knowledge. And WHY??? A forum full of to many ignorant bullies. In bad need of some moderators to weed them out.

    Thanks everyone.

  • workingdogforum has a well defined hierarchy, and it's the very same moderators and a few long standing members who encourage the bullying behavior. Of this "elite" bunch, those who have opinions about protection dogs come from a sport dog background. With the exception of the PSD handlers who are active members I doubt anyone has been in a situation where aggression was required from the dog. In the time that I spent on that board trying to draw out individuals knowledgeable about protection dogs, all I got was a few private messages, as those people were not willing to face the BS in the open forum. The rest and vast majority of active members are just sheep bleating along with the "expert" forum leaders.

    Their ignorance stems first from lack of experience. You have to be familiar with sport dog training mentality to understand why this is. You'd think that with PSD handlers on the forum the picture would be different. But this is not the case because most PSD handlers are not trainers, and don't fully understand how their service dogs are different than a dog that's living in family environment, and why for it to be of any use as a protection dog it will be required to make its own decisions.

    The prevailing mindset in wdf among those who presume to know it all, is that dogs are automatons, and every behavior the dog can come up with as it relates to protection is based on a number of predetermined drives, which must be developed in a specific way. It is inconceivable to them that a dog will perceive varying degrees of threat as it relates to the dog's people and property, and take varying degrees of action in response to the threat to remove it successfully, all using its own judgement. This good judgement comes from correct genetics which would impart to the dog courage, stability and self assuredness with a degree of suspicion, along with the right upbringing and experiences part of which will be formal obedience training, and if necessary agitation within the context of the dog's environment.

    Many members of wdf are just as you observed; bullies. They get off on putting down someone who deep down they feel knows something they don't. It's a defense mechanism, to keep them feeling good about who they are and what they think they know. wdf is a complete waste of time, you'll just come away angry. It's better to use your common sense and work with as many dogs as you can. The dogs will teach you, and if they're good you will come to understand protection dogs. Read the Koehler book as I recommended.

  • Thank you Dan and TonoA.

    I appretiate your patience with my lack of knowledge in this. I truly would like to find someone open to the breed, and understanding of the difference, that would like to work with them.

    Their intelligence with realizing real threats, reacting with measured responses, ability to read their owners comfort level, and ability to stop very large threats will hopefully find a place or function in the Protection Dog World. Also their calm, dedicated demeanor that makes them wonderful dogs around kids.

    I took Monster to a Festival with several thousand people packed in it. MANY kids ran up to hug and pet him, and crowds of adults surrounding him to pet him, all the while maintaining perfect composure and calmness. But at home, will put you back in your car, and PREVENT you from doing anything out of the ordinary. All with a measured response for the situation.

    To me they make great family Protection dogs naturally. And with some socialization or training, could be improved greatly.

    Thanks again

  • those dogs have everything to succeed in protecting families and individuals alike.
    Monster is a great name for a dog actually ;)

    "Every dog, we are told, has his day, unless there are more dogs than days." B.M.

  • Hey Brian, what have you been up to man?

    How are your dogs doing?

    Looking forward to know about you and your experiences with both Boz, and Kangals.

    Best regards

    "Every dog, we are told, has his day, unless there are more dogs than days." B.M.

  • It is inconceivable to them that a dog will perceive varying degrees of threat as it relates to the dog's people and property, and take varying degrees of action in response to the threat to remove it successfully, all using its own judgement. This good judgement comes from correct genetics which would impart to the dog courage, stability and self assuredness with a degree of suspicion, along with the right upbringing and experiences part of which will be formal obedience training, and if necessary agitation within the context of the dog's environment.

    Dan you are really making my night.