Thanks for the info guys
What breed is recommended for farm/livestock protection? Kangals, Dogos, Rottweilers, boerbell, Malinois? Other breeds not mentioned? ?Many good people here with experience in such breeds. Thank you for the opinions.
As with any video there are numerous factors we are not privy to. What was the circumstances for police wanting this guy? Serving a felony warrant? A felony incident that just happened? Did this guy have a prior criminal arrest history involving weapons, assault and/or assault on officers? Since we don't know the facts it's easy to make a blanket judgement on any video. Apparently handler gave the bite command. I thought he was saying platz but not the case. If it was a breaking of a platz I would be livid at the handler for lack of control over the dog. Would clearly be a training issue. But from what it seems he intentionally sent the dog. I can only hope there were factors present we are not aware of.
If the pp dogs owned by people here bit someone there will be numerous things the public will not know was happening/said at the time. I would hope everyone here will be given the benefit of the doubt if you ever have to deploy your dog. The serious training and quality dogs that members here have are to be admired. On the flip side anyone who casually goes looking for live bites just to watch their dog battle a man is a loser. Civilian or K9 handler makes no difference. When I deploy my dog I have to stand by that split second decision 100%. I have everything to lose if a careless decision was made. When needed to be done I will not lie it is a breathtaking test of a dog's genetics/training/owner bond. :thumbsup2:
One final note. Having to tell someone 6 times to slowly stand up is absurd. This guy made the choice to not comply. Any normal person will slowly get up the FIRST time they were told. If the circumstances were extremely serious (a weapon was present or threat of such) one loud command is all you get before dog is deployed not 6 lol. jmho
Brody would you say that video illustrates predatory aggression?
Zero for the nighttime backyard search you gave. Would you be using a normal 5 or 6 foot leash? Or a 20 or more foot long leash? I would say the short leash is safest and least liability. 20 feet is 20 feet of too much freedom the dog has to get in trouble.
Question: How would you go about training a search on a short leash? Such a catch 22 I find. My dog searches best when totally loose. When on a short leash he just pulls for the sake of pulling. Yet when loose a lot more can go wrong lol
I totally agree Brody.
The breeds that are used for psd compared to pd differ greatly. I doubt you will ever see a massive Rott, Cane Corso, Caucasian Ovtcharka etc name your breed of choice being used as a psd. Utter destruction of a person is not encouraged in psd. Ironic that in the absolute worse case scenario where imminent lethal force is being used against you then I believe it's either destruction by dog or destruction by pistol. But that's usually not the policy of most police depts.
At least when it comes to your personal safety, the safety of your family get the biggest most intense breed you feel you can handle. If a person can afford it then get two :toast1:
In my mind I use an incident that happened in my state several years ago which gained national attention as the standard for pd expectations.
A mom and two daughters were slaughtered in a heinous way in their own home. Two psychotic males hell bent on destroying did I just that. No firearm was used. I believe a blunt object.
A dog that has the fortitude, courage, intensity to fight not just one man but two has to be one hell of a dog! Needless to say there was no dog of any kind in this home.
After this incident protection dog sales went through the roof. Any loser who claimed to train protection dogs made a ton of money even if they had no idea how to even train a hamster.
Though a very large serious dog would be a better choice as ppd. I know my limitations. I just would not feel comfortable enough with a dog so massive it could kill me if something went terribly wrong in it's head. I have the utmost respect for guys that do own and train the "gladiator breeds".
Zero regarding your bark and hod question. If a absolute known threat then anything other than find and bite would put you and the dog at greater risk than needed. A tough call I will admit. Guess it is a case by case decision. The idea of the dog "deciding" himself what to do given the multitude of real life variables makes it a recipie for financial disaster no?
So maybe using a long line when clearing your yard helps have a measure of control as he gets near a kid hiding. If a legit intruder you have the long line and verbal control to now decide your course of action. At least you are making the crucial decisions not the dog.
I use two methods for clearing yards, buildings etc.
One the dog is usually loose but NOT in a bite whoever he comes upon frame of mind. More hanging near me poking around walking with me ready at any moment I need to direct him towards a threat. The other is a 100% bite the first person he comes upon mindset. Needless to say the latter is only used for a confirmed threat that is hiding. Announcements are loudly given informing the hiding threat that a dog will be set loose to locate you and when found he will bite and injure you. Now the liability is off my shoulders.
The announcements are a major cue to the dog that a violent encounter/fight will happen. I instill this mindset during repeated training scenarios. It's a conditioned response.
I find this has been the best and most efficient way of using a proactive bite dog.
The essence of a sport style bark and hold or even a more realistic one (the dog stays out of reach of person) is fundamentally flawed I feel. It puts the decision making process ( he moved I can bite, he sneezed I can bite, he raised his arms I can bite etc) on the dog. His job is not to try and make split second complex rational decisions. That is my job as the human. We all know how some dogs learn that if they nip the person they get a reaction thus "he moved, I'm allowed to bite right?"
Let's face it one should not be casually sending any dog to simply check out a area without the expectation of a bite. Why send the dog then? What is the goal? Again dog is thinking too much. If you truly feel a intruder is in your home all bets are off. Send him to search with only one objective in mind. All out effort to severely injure. Serious circumstances call for serious measures. IMO
If just in your yard might be more iffy legally? I am in no position to tell someone how best to protect their home/property.
Re the White House dog I am assuming it was two different dogs that were sent? Either way the second engagement was very good IMO. How could it have been better? The dog too repeated blows and did not let go. The dog actually too person off his feet. No need to have a massive "manstopper" like a Cane Corso, Rott, or such for the White House. Plenty of long guns ready to unleash a barrage if needed. Besides if a dog starts mauling/crippling a intruder would the American public have the stomach for that when it hits CNN? That little Mal did a great job for his size. Let's face it the threat was indeed stopped.
I will have to revisit that White House video. I think I was one of the few people who thought the second dog did a excellent job. Will have to view it again though. It's been a while.
Glad intelligent discussion can take place. Sometimes words, ideas are taken out of context and it becomes a pissing match. Let me say I do respect your opinion even if some things I may disagree with. In the end we all have to work with the dog we have. I do agree that the term manstopper is a loaded term as I mentioned previously.
Sometimes a dog regardless of size can "stop" or more like scare off a assailant even when no bite occurs. If a home/property intruder intent on doing harm is scared off by a confident barking/snarling display great. If it goes further and one quick bite has the person flee then great. But we all know there are psychotic bad asses out there who will fight and try and injure/kill a psd or ppd. I think we maybe more in agreement just a matter of semantics that's all.
Seeing firsthand how a dog handles everything from person not fighting back just trying to get away from the dog to engaging on totally passive non reacting to nasty biting (adrenaline/PCP etc) to all out repeated kicks, punches, picked up and slammed hard against houses and NOT letting go once. As many psd handlers who have dealt with hellacious situations they will tell you with tears in their eyes the pride in seeing the true genetic character of their dog put to the test in such situations. I know my 70 lb Dutchie can be eventually killed by a hulking hopped up nutjob if a true fight to the death. I know the brutal reality of what can happen. If he gives me 10 min of all out 100% effort till the troops arrive then what more can I ask of him? And by the way at 13 years of age he gives his all to this day. God bless him!
To your point about weapon hand targeting. Since it seems most people are right handed he usually targets the right arm anyhow. If person held something in left hand well who knows? I won't disagree that idea of the hand holding weapon makes sense but is it getting to complex of a training idea? Not sure
In March he disarmed a guy swinging a 8 inch filet knife. Luckily the ass held it in his right hand. Despite being punched with left hand he did not let go. Countered (thrashing wildly) effectively where knife was dropped. :thumbsup2: A genetic trait I greatly encourage.
That opens up a discussion for another time about re-targeting when blows are being felt. I used to think that made sense but real life showed me hanging on to one spot and digging deeper, thrashing wildly, biting harder has been far more effective. Cause the maximum damage in the shortest time possible!
Just my view. Some agree some don't.
In the end did you and your dog prevail. Do what works for you not anyone else.
Sorry for babbling. Again I commend you for whatever training you do with your dog. Some people do no training yet expect amazing performance. Keep up the good work Zero
But wouldn't a trained family protection dog mean manstopper or at least a dog that gives an all out effort to be such? Anything less is called a yapping watchdog. When it comes to home/family/personal defense there can't be any grey area. Only black and white. Dog is of the genetic material that it will fight to it's dying breath giving you and your family a chance at surviving a violent encounter.
Would not waste my time with bark/hold. A sport idea that has no place in real life situations. Likewise teaching dog to targeting hand with a weapon. Do I want a dog trying to figure out in a split second shtf situation if that object held is a gun or a cellphone? Why put any decision making in the hands of a dog. I will decide when/who he is to engage on. If a bad choice the consequences fall on me not the dog. Owners/handlers get sued not dogs.
Play with balls, tugs nothing wrong with that. Great for prey drive development then move beyond that. Depends on the dog and ultimate goals. I have balls, tugs, sleeves laying around during bitework.
I teach my dogs go ignore such and to ignore being pelted with balls, sleeves thrown at it when fighting decoy. Why brush such potential issues under the rug. Expose the dog to such distractions and have it realize the fight with decoy is way more fun.
What is a ppd? The dog that unleashed hell in defense of you and your family. lol
Why would the handler not be able to keep the dog? Why not?
Training issues seem clear here, not a psychotic dog. Like any headlines event it is easy to Monday morning quarterback. Pretty sure none of us were standing there witnessing the event. Just like the White House K9 video. Variables present that we are not privy to. That being said good discussion/debate can hopefully help overall understanding. Maybe prevent similar incidents.
Not knowing the dog or handler I can only assume the level of control/obedience was not put into that dog. Bad handling does not mean the dog has is lousy quality. In addition the typical ignorance by general public including LEO community about police dogs is rampant.
Idiot Sgt trying to pet the dog while in the car. Why??? Too bad she was not bit. Teach her a valuable lesson. It's not like your darling Golden retriever at home! Would a person touch a ofc pistol? No, why touch a psd. A serious working TOOL not a pet.
Why was front window wide open where dog can suddenly exit? (assuming bars on rear window)
Gave 3 commands yet dog ignored them(training issue)
Dog targeted on other officer but changed route and targeted on worker. Had the officer given the bite command that would have been correct.(to target the officer) But NO such command given. Dog decided on his own to bite whomever he chose.
Dog does not get to decide who he bites when commanded. Cop, criminal, little old lady. Bite means bite.
Took a minute to "pry" the dog off the worker? Really??? Where do I begin with that.
One word .... verbal out every time all the time. God forbid people train to the highest standard possible. In all fairness to the dog if quality training is not put into it it's not his fault.
Our dogs are a direct reflection of who we are as trainers, handlers, owners.
People can study lines till they are blue in the face, pass up litters here and there if the combination of traits, looks, etc are not quite right. In the end like Brody stated pups are a crapshoot. There is no perfect dog.
A certain specimen can be sub standard to one person yet phenomenal to another. We are all looking for different things, have different goals for a dog. Some want over the top intense drive, some want calm deliberate intention. No dog possesses every desired quality that exists.
Some want ease of trainability to mold into the worker they want, some want a completely independent dog that innately does everything desired without having to put in training.
I've seen trash specimens come from top lines and top workers come from local pounds....
and vice versa.
Genetics I will say are the best predictor of the quality of a dog. Some people wing it and get a great pup. Some people put intelligent research/effort and get a great pup. Who says it can't work out for both. As long as people are overall happy with what they have then that's all that matters.
Kyle, Good luck with Ares. Handsome fellow!
I agree. Was not blunt as of yet in my questioning of this breed and more so what traning will be put into it. Or lack of?
Not putting down an breed or what someone plans to do with a dog but.......
How structured traning will be put into this pup? The whole process starting from selecting pick of litter (Is he the pick of litter? Or simply what is left over?) to developing the young dog. I just don't understand letting a dog that big feel like it can attack anything or anyone it wants just cause one lives in a non urban location.
Training is what ensures predicable response to a variety of situations. Why cross one's fingers and hope the dog does what you want when you want to whom you want and in the way you want. Traning/obedience is a incredible form of bonding with a dog and is a form of speaking the same language in a sense.
Saw a old news clip of a woman supposedly mentally impaired who wandered onto a guy's unfenced several acre wooded property. Two Anatolian shepherds were loose and on their own decided to maul the lady. Ripped off her scalp, numerous nasty arm/leg bites. Of course owner did no outing on command trainng and had to beat the dogs off they were so in drive. I can only imagine the civil lawsuit that will occur. Do you really think the typical liberal jurors these days will side with the owner? Why risk losing all your assets, home etc because of what a dog decides on his own to do. Someone breaking into your home and dog(s) destroy person much more reasonable in public view. Same if someone attacks you or is clear threat (has weapon) on your property. God help the owner whose dog(s) attack someone not fitting that criteria.
Would it be reasonable for a person to snipe a stranger in the back simply because they are a stranger on the property? At least as a human we can pause and make a coherent choice. A dog will just react based on it's training or lack of. As many times my psd has saved my ass physically he has saved me just as many times liability wise due to level of control/obedience I have on him.
In the end there is no right or wrong answer only the consequences our dogs do that we must live with .
I know you will be getting the pup soon Kyle but in your search for farm dog breeds have you checked out the South African Boarboel?
Kyle I was never aware of the CAS nor the various offshoots from it. But it seems to be that way with most breeds.
It's interesting seeing breeds that are untouched by the show dog, sport dog, house pet world. From the videos I have seen recently of them it seems like a "rough around the edges" type breed. A no nonsense dog bred to naturally be overly aggressive to animals and people. The sites generally say it is protective of it's property and owners and children but less than ideal as a personal protection dog. Better suited as a sentry type dog for a farm, ranch, very isolated homestead. Reliable obedience, desire to take absolute direction from the owner not it's forte. Traits that the established ppd breeds like Dogo, malinois, Dutch shep, German shep, Rott, etc have. The sites say breed is not as evenly balanced in the various drives. Mostly a very high defense breed. It sees another dog, predator, or stranger then immediate attack is it's natural reaction. Yikes!
I'll be honest maybe it was the few sites, videos etc but a bunch of questions were raised in my mind about the breed.
In all fairness to the breed I found one worse video after another. People in remote desert villages in Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Iran so forth who clearly are clueless when it comes to dog training. Very harsh living conditions, encouraged to suddenly attack stray dogs and strangers that came near the village. If the stranger kills it then no big deal get a new dog. (Harsh mindset culture over there) Also dog fighting is big in those cultures thus influencing which dogs are bred. If I can figure out how to post videos (easier to split the atom) I would love to get your opinion Kyle of this breed in their natural native setting doing/acting for the purpose it was created. God help the Fed Ex guy or relative that drops by unannounced. Grab the shovel, bury the body lol
Kyle what are your thoughts on the Kangal breed? Is it same/similar to the Central Asian shepherd?
So true Chad, even strong dogs can appear uncertain as to what to do if never exposed to a scenario in training. Some first time situations are just mind blowing. Never mind the utter unpredictability that real life encounters are.
Brody what kind of multiple attackers scenario do you do? When you say "attacker at best will get one or two seconds before dog is defending owner" (paraphrasing) Is that cause dog decided on his own to release the first assailant? Or did owner recall the dog off the first one off to now help him?
I wish there was a perfect response to every scenario that the dog would face but that's just not reality. What is a good response in one situation is a detrimental one in another. There have been times I needed the dog to STAY engaged on one person who had the weapon while I am fighting his buddy who thank God was unarmed. What good is the dog to me if he automatically recalls to me without being told to do so? If I need him I will recall him but if not he must do as originally commanded to do.
This referring to your two person scenario. Unless the dog truly incapacitates the first guy or if first guy is a coward and will leave his buddy you WILL now have two knuckleheads to deal with.
It relates to the fallacy of transfer bites. At least in my view it is a misguided fallacy In one situation it would be ideal for it to happen. In another situation it would be a disaster for both dog and handler. I made the near grave error years back of thinking you could train an ideal response depending on the situation that arises. What a crock! lol
Keep things as simple as possible rather than " ok dog do this in this situation but if this or that factor appears then do something entirely different but then do such and such if such variable suddenly presents itself but not if" etc you get my point. It's just a dog not a Mac computer.
How is the dog responding to a situation, the way I perceive it or the way he does? I had to learn the hard way to keep the conditioned responses as simple and clear as possible so at least I can predict with reliability how the dog will respond in a situation rather than get a unexpected "suprise" in his behavior. That suprise could cost us dearly.
I'm with ya Brody on the gattling gun!
Relating to the vid.
Most burglaries, home invasions are done by at least two or more people. Criminals by nature are cowards. Who here practices various multiple threat scenarios? Will you dog engage on two or more threats at same time in training?
In all likelihood NO dog will survive a all out multiple threat situation. Without having to state the obvious these rodents are almost always armed with something. Once they kill your dog are you now prepared to deal with them? The dog bought you precious seconds to go to plan B. Honor his sacrifice by already having a plan B in place.
Just throwing out food for thought.