Posts by Gee

    theskeindhu :

    You sound like a guy who has done some home work.

    Truth is, the size of your dog alone will put of of the vast majority, including possibly the criminal insane lol.
    (No training required, but hopefully - great with the kids)
    Only you will know, instinctively the character of your dog.

    Kids / family come first, the dog should enhance that unit, and maybe one day be capable of physically protecting that precious pack.

    If you trust him, and you think he ticks this box - instill in him that ethos, through basic obedience / stern lines in the sand, in the unlikely event he does not bend - get rid of him.


    Re your first two lines, if the pup is a baby - no the opposite would be true.

    However if the pup is a ten month old, weighing 140lb and showing attitude to your kids, then yes.

    Either way - consistent and firm early obedience training can't start soon enough.

    Jumping way forward - remember, not all dogs make good or suitable protectors.
    An example being - some dogs/ breeds will engage inappropriately to a non event, for instance two children are physically horse playing, this triggers the dog to intervene. (no sense of balance/proportion)

    A good trainer will assess your dog, way before commencing man work, and should definitely be asking about your family situation. (how many children/what age etc etc)

    Best of luck.


    He was advised to put padding up his T-shirt, however because this was Bertha's first muzzle session and she would be worked on the lead - he didn't see the need.

    I accepted this gallant gesture, as it would add to the civil nature of the training session - and sure did.


    theskeindhu :
    So many variables. (Peter covered most of them).

    For what it is worth - my wife and daughter are push overs, they do not have a dominant bone in there bodies. To that avail, definitely easier training the dogs lol.
    My dogs - 3 GSD's (two highly trained and extremely capable PPD's, one just starting training).

    My Wife/son/daughter, if need be, can verbally direct/control the dogs.
    Come/stay/sit etc.

    But, and this is a big BUT, that is AFTER, the dogs have been extensively socialized and trained by myself. (hundreds of hours of training/bonding/socialization and generally defining boundaries from a very young age)

    That ground work / foundation training is essential in any situation, but becomes an absolute prerequisite when young children come in to the fold.

    Hope that helps, and all the best.


    Yep, nice love bite Sergio.
    She has gone in hard - judging by the bruising lol. :thumbsup2:

    Talking of bruising, here is a pic taken last week, the result of a helper being bulldozed by my young bitch Bertha in the muzzle. His well honed beer belly helping to absorb the impact lol.



    Hi Brody,
    Phils, 38 years service will have it covered.

    For what it is worth, whilst training I have encountered the following:

    Dog on a thirty foot tracking line - smacked by a car, basically the handler gave the dog to much slack.

    Doing some building search training in an old historic tower, pre glass in windows.
    Dog sent in, jumped up on a window ledge, waist high, and came out the other side - second floor. Transpires the decoy had a piss and a fag at that opening, before going further up the tower. Not his fault of course, having visited this site in day light hours, we should have assessed things differently re the relatively low gaping windows.
    Dog should have been on a ten foot line.

    In retrospect both the above could easily have been prevented/avoided, but unfortunately accidents do happen.


    Hi Phil,
    Sorry to hear that, a heavy toll indeed.
    Re the training exercise - was that a fall from height?


    Re maternal aggression, IMO, a completely hard wired and chemically induced state she SHOULD be in, whilst whelping and a wee bit beyond.

    Shows good strong survival of the fittest DNA :thumbsup2:

    Totally natural, and mirrors the vast majority of female mammal behavior across all species. :)


    @ Sergio, think you misunderstand friend. :)

    I am talking about observing a young dogs immediate reaction to a genuine physical correction. (I am not testing the dog, by engineering the correction, I am observing it's recovery rate for good or bad post correction)

    I think you have probably read the holding a puppy down thing, which was mentioned but only as a digress.


    Some good points guys.

    I am talking about very early signs of recovery, the most likely time you will see this, in my experience is from circa six months old post a physical correction.
    A pup of that age if being exposed to various environments, should be an open book to new situations. (I don't mean serious stresses)

    @ Peter - agree some superb dogs can be soft to handler correction, even verbal. (Malis,especially spring to mind)

    Re the pinning down of the puppy on it's back, I would personally never use that.
    With one exception - as one test of many, when selecting or helping select for a third party, a six - eight week old puppy. And in that case the objective would not be to make the pup submit, it would be to see hopefully - how much the pup fights/wriggles to get OUT of that submissive and vulnerable position. :thumbsup2:

    When I physically correct, there is always a good reason, my objective is to make the pup think it's world is going to end. They all cross a line at some time, and if done correctly - they won't do it again.

    On a side note - my current young bitch, (Bertha of Darkvakia) who I am bringing on, will start serious man work imminently. Now she crossed the line a few months ago whilst out in a park, anyways an old fella threatened to call the police, as he interpreted what I was doing to the pup - cruel. Understandable from a pet owners perspective, but once again - the pup was not being subjected to physical pain.

    Anyways I digress, with any young dog I always observe there recovery after a decent correction. They definitely tick a box for me, if they forgive and forget instantly. :)

    @Brody - agree.
    The other thing about a dog softer to correction, is that they tend to be more needy/clingy, which of course is what you are pertaining to re easier to live with. I am generalizing to a certain extent, however that's my experience, for what it is worth.


    When rearing / bringing on a young dog, one of the most important natural traits I hope he / she has is - a good recovery rate.
    (Now I am talking way before any man work has commenced).

    An indication of this can be observed as early as circa six months.

    For instance, if you have sternly administered a correction. (Ideally physical) I personally grab them by the scruff, press down and growl at them.

    Then gauge therre reaction to an instant recall, heel/sit.
    Observe the speed at which they take position/eye contact/general demure.

    If they have instantly bounced back - IMO they have just demonstrated a vital natural trait, which is rarely discussed, and which IMO, very much increases there chances of becoming a very good working dog. :)


    Yep, like his attitude, primitive cur.

    Part of the training process is encouraging the genie to come out of the bottle. (which is what you are doing there)

    It then depends how far/refined you want to take it, of course the intelligence of the dog in front of you, will also dictate what can be done lol. (re control/refinement etc)

    Would hazard a guess - with that particular dog, your intention was not to refine.


    Hi Guys,
    A dog with correct genetics, but no training = an unknown quantity.

    No matter the breed, know one knows how ANY dog will react to stresses etc until you go there.

    I am not saying an un trained dog won't protect it's owner, I am saying you will never know the capability/limitations/thresholds/weaknesses of that animal.

    An example might be - the dog did eventually fire up, but by then you are in a coma.
    That same dog with training may well have sparked up much sooner/qued to a verbal command, after all it did engage, the genetics are there, but the training wasn't.

    A dog with correct genetics and good training = reliable protector.

    Dan - it's not about good genetics over training, it should always be about combining both. I am sure we agree - having one without the other is about as useful as a chocolate tea pot.

    Sergio - I couldn't agree more.
    A Neo is another breed ruined by the show ring, it's a big loose skinned Italian Mastiff, who only a few decades ago was considered the "Guard Dog Per Excellence".

    Peter good to hear from you, I like your vitamin pill analogy, lot of truth in that.
    There is of course another option, which I believe we are ALL proud off - raise and train your own, much more fun getting your hands dirty eh, and a whole lot more rewarding than throwing the price of a car at a potentially over hyped mutt. :thumbsup2:

    Safe training guys.


    Last week I was assessing four dogs including a Neo, Rottie and 2 GSD's, re suitability for PPD training at my kennel.

    Suffice to say - all four were not even in the ball park.

    Now, there is nothing unusual about the results of that assessment.

    If nothing else - perhaps they might do many things differently, next time they invest in a pup..

    However, one thing they did do correctly, was to do the assessment, because in doing so they recognized the importance of training.

    Over the twenty years I have been training, I have lost count of the number of owners, usually of the more exotic guardian breeds, who see training as a dirty word, almost a weakness. (instead they believe in raw primitive instinct)
    Now that really makes me laugh, because having a dog who will consistently engage in ANY environment requires training.
    Whether you want to use the words conditioning, testing or proofing, rather than training, matters not a jot - it's still preparing your dog to ALWAYS engage, which is training.

    Of course this is why ALL military and police forces world wide - TRAIN.

    Those who believe that purely relying on there breeds built in protective radar, will more often than not encounter the following: (ASSUMING the dog has got some natural ability)

    No exaggerated aggressive behavior, yet the handler knows there is a serious threat
    but because the dog hasn't been qued to attack passively on a verbal command - (dead handler)

    Inconsistent reaction to a threat. (dead or injured handler)

    Extremely slow in sparking up. (dead or injured handler)

    Confused dog. (dead dog)

    Easily put off by external stresses. (as above)

    Not engaging at all. (dead or injured handler)

    Not outing. (possibly a dead petty criminal and a euthanized dog post encounter)

    Distracted by other dogs. (dead or injured handler)

    Dog taking flight. (hospitalized handler)

    Innocent third party bites in the heat of battle. (law suit).

    The above list is not meant to be fully comprehensive.

    Why train - indeed!! :thumbsup2:


    Zking - Dans advice is good. If you do it harsh enough your dog will instantly learn.

    A more subtle approach would be to try a new toy, one which he will want to retrieve and not chew - try a hard plastic frisbee.

    Once you throw it, chances are he will retrieve it and drop it at your feet (if he doesn't - ignore him until he does) because he wants to keep the game going. If he does drop it - start timing the out with his drop, progressing to saying the out before he drops it.

    Eventually, transfer the frisbee for the tug, the association of keeping the game going and clearly understanding the verbal command on the release should then be embedded.

    What your experiencing is very common, many sport disciplines are reluctant to teach the out from day one - fearing it will impact on the quality/intensity of the bite.

    Good luck.


    Sergio - I meant to concur with you in my previous email - your five basic points are bang on.

    It's also worth mentioning, the correlation between protective capability, coupled with balance and control, adds many decimal points to the value of the dog.

    I guess there is a good comparison between a trained K9 guardian and a human body guard.

    If you are unfortunate enough to be rich and famous lol. (unfortunately I do not have that problem)
    The last thing you would want is a body guard who is a psychopathic caveman, who breaks the necks of your fans - just because they touch / rush at you to get your autograph.

    I am sure we agree, when training/owning a capable dog - balance and control are everything. :thumbsup2:


    "can I touch your dog"

    Good practical question Sergio, and one that most or all of us will have encountered.

    Taking the question at face value and assuming we are talking about an every day Joe/child who are sober with no hidden agendas. :thumbsup2:

    If a PPD ain't capable of accepting the above, then there is something seriously amiss with the dogs suitability/temperament/training. (not a dog I would call a PPD)

    A well balanced and very well trained PPD will have been trained and proofed - multiple times to engage with teeth at the very least, to the following triggers:

    1, An overtly aggressive display by a third party.

    2, Passive attack - triggered purely by a verbal que from the handler.

    Even within the above two general scenarios, there can be additional stimulus which further encourage the dog to engage, ie a bite suit or sleeve. (both of which should be dumped pre proofing the final article)

    Without going of on a long training tangent - a reliable, well balanced and well trained PPD should NOT perceive Joe public wanting to clap them - a trigger.

    Indeed the opposite of this is true - your opening question should be part of a good PPD training programme.

    Here is a link to a vid which hints at your question.
    Sure it is artificial in as much as the dogs are in an obvious training environment, however they are allowing petting by a third party before queing on the handlers verbal command to an initially non aggressive, passive person who is wearing no sleeve/suit.

    Gee :)

    Sergio - good tight chain - always a good sign.

    At no stage did she try and go to the side or behind you.

    Keep up the good work. :thumbsup2: