Chad, if you don't understand KNPV then you probably expect dogs to pull on the bite. That's what your mololosserrs do. Lie Dans Rotts and your Hog Hound. Even GSD's are bred and trained to pull on the bite for IPO sport.
KNPV line dogs are bred and trained to drive in to the bite, not pull away from it.
That's why you're underestimating my dogs bite. You're not familiar with KNPV bite style.
You don't know what it is you're looking at.
Chad, those vids are of KNPV style box guard training. It's a foundation exercise. The decoy is working the remote to correct for a slow out. He can feel it better then I can see it. Therefore if the dog is starting to release the grip, from the handlers perspective it may not be so evident and an unwarranted correction may be given, whereas the decoy feels the release and is better able to give a proper correction when needed. Again, that is a standard KNPV procedure.
Thanks for taking time to look at those old vids. I haven't made new ones for awhile and maybe I should.
My dog weighs in at 62 lbs. soaking wet. I guess you're used to comparing dogs to your big dog and that must seem small. She has a couple of live street bites under her belt, her speed and power are more than enough to get the job done. You'd be surprised how much force a confident dog with the right genetics can generate, even a 62lb fox dog.
Besides maybe the black GSD I wouldn't take any one of those dogs if you paid me. All I saw there was poor targeting, pressure avoidance, weak commitment and shallow grips. Also dumb handling and stupid decoying.
Don't even try to compare that bunch of poor mutts to KNPV dogs. It would only show how little you know about protection dogs.
If your training for PPD why wouldn't you train a bark on command first?
It's easy to do and from that you can move onto a box guard exercise.
The box guard is a way to begin a young dog in defense drive without putting undue pressure on it, and you can do it yourself without a helper.
Looking at the vid, the dogs not showing much drive. She's happy to take the tug but doesn't really commit.
If you're serious about keeping and training the dog, get the KMOGDT book and test her as the book instructs. If she washes out quick, don't waste your efforts trying to push her to be what she cannot. She may not have the genetics for civil bite work. But you could salvage her as a watch dog. Most people are scared of Dobermans and will avoid them.
Ok first of all I did not say these dogs were not trained for a verbal out. What I said was we did not use a verbal out in these scenarios. Every dog there was a PSD or PPD that had live bites. They were all capable of a verbal out.
This discussion seems to be striking at a very sensitive nerve for a few of you. If your dog is giving you a hint of doubt, don't cover it up. Expose it and either train it out or move on to another dog.
End of discussion.
These sticks were not intended to pry the dogs jaws apart. Only to illicit a gag reflex.
They worked very well once the handlers mastered the technique.
With one hand on the dogs collar and the other slipping the 'stick' into the corner of the dogs mouth and rotating it to cause the gag, the dog could be pulled off the bite with no fuss or fighting or yelling.
as I described it previously, the "stick' is actually a screwdriver about 6" long. the blade end of the screwdriver is hammered down into a ball shape with no sharp edges, the shaft is then bent slightly in the middle. it goes into the corner of the mouth and then rotated so that the angle of the bend causes the ball part to touch into the dogs throat and make him gag. Just like sticking a finger in your throat to cause a gag for vomiting.
Bite suits were used with the decoys imposing on the dogs even before bite engagement.
In one barroom scenario, the decoy was a suspect which had to be removed from a bar. The decoy was ranting an raving and smashing furniture around, the dog was to be sent in for a bite, the decoy would fend the dog off with a chair to see how hard the dog would work to get a bite. At the point where the dog was gaining position advantage, the decoy would let the dog slip in for a bite. But it wasn't like a launch over the top bite like in sport, the dog had to slip under or around the chair.
Also decoy arms were wrapped with layers of newspapers with just a shirt over it. Decoy would sit quietly in a chair and dogs were sent to bite on a 'passive' suspect.
There were also muzzle fighting scenarios with the decoys in street clothes.
The choke offs, as opposed to verbal outs, were employed to keep the dogs in high drive even after the bite. We weren't training for bark and guard. We wanted the dogs to stay 100% focused on the bad guy even after the bite and ready to return right into the fight, which was also done.
The break sticks were demonstrated as a way to get a dog off a bite in a PSD civil situation. For example a dog biting a suspect and there is a crowd standing around, instead of shouting at the dog or choking it off, a quick break stick, which was actually a bent screwdriver with the end blunted into a ball, slipped into the side of the dogs mouth and turned slightly to cause a gag reflex, then the dog will open his mouth and you can quickly pull him off the bite without commotion.
The choke off is not taken as a command or taken personally by the dog. He see's it as part of the fight game, as part of the challenge if you will. Even after the choke off, in his mind the fight is still on, as he has not been commanded to out.
Recently I attended a seminar that was focused on really testing dogs. There were no verbal outs, only choke offs or break sticks were used. The decoys used hidden sleeves in addition to suits and they really beat the tar out of the dogs.
I saw several PSD's wash out, literally turn and cower. And I saw some owner trained PPD's that took a beating and pushed even harder.
My own female, which is my PP dog, did me proud. But we train for the street, and I keep her in tip top shape so she feels strong.
How many of you fellows have tested dogs with heavy pressure in civil scenarios?
What were the outcomes?
Have you tested your dog in a hard civil scenario yet?
Heavy pressure, no equipment except hidden sleeve, with a hard beating on the dog?
If you have, how did he do? If you haven't, why not?
Hello, which lines is your DS out of? He sounds like a good one.
At a recent training seminar I saw several GSD working police dogs wash out in scenarios. They seemed limited in their capacities but easy to handle in a crowd.
That might be why so many departments swear by them.
I think you would agree, it takes a devoted and clear headed handler to handle a high drive Mal or DS without getting innocent civilians or fellow officers bit by mistake.
I would also agree that the second dog did his job. He engaged and held on. It looked like his targeting and grip were poor. He was low on the arm and pulling away from the man.
Look up vids of soccer hooligans in Holland.
You'll see K9 officers with 60lb Mals taking down hyped up hooligans like they were rag dolls. And these bad actors are coming at the dogs swinging, kicking and throwing rocks.
Well trained and seasoned dogs with the right genetics don't back down and know how to fight a man.
Regarding the Secret Service dogs. I heard it beat on another forum. they're govt property and anything purchased by the govt can be summed up in two words "Lowest Bidder".
Hello and welcome.
I looked at a video of an Airedale doing an object guard exercise. I think it was in Mondio.
He was very good. He bit hard and drove in. More like a herder than a terrier.
Hey Kyle, I would second what Peter is telling you. Additionally, you would do yourself some good to pick up a copy of Koehler Method of Guard Dog Training.
He has a section on Plant Security Dogs, which is close to what needs you're describing.
For a private residence situation such as yours, regardless if you want your dog to perceive every intruder as a threat, you will have to train him to see the difference between an intruding criminal and goofy neighborhood kid who absentmindedly wandered into your yard, or even hopped the fence.
There was recently a case in Michigan were a man was either biking or jogging past a property where two Corsos were out loose, they ran the man down and killed him. That kind of situation should always be in the back of your mind as you go through the process of training your dog to guard property. Natural instinct only goes so far. Also don't expect that you'll be able to train this dog by yourself. You will need to employ an experienced decoy/trainer, and you can expect to spend serious money for his services.
Before you commit to a Caucasian Shepherd or Central Asia Shepherd or whatever they're calling it, look at the breeds that are actually being used as working dogs in the real world.
I can guarantee you there is not one CAS in any LE K-9 unit in the US. Probably not even in any first world country. I'm telling you this because if you invest in a dog breed because some breeder has you believe is exotic and "special" most likely the only thing special about the deal will be your lack of knowledge being taken advantage of.
If your goal is to start a line of property protection dogs then look at dogs that are actually being used in that capacity. I would think one of the first breeds you would consider would be a Rottweiler.
That session was too long. I don't like to see the dog bouncing in front of the decoy
He should rather be focusing on his target and challenging the aggressor. If anything he should be pulling that leash taut.
I would agree with Dans advice about putting him up for a while. You've brought him a long way in a short time but further development calls for changing training techniques.
He needs exposure to threat, so that he can learn to recognize it.
I was at a training seminar in 2013 with Hennie Bolster, a Dutch police dog trainer.
This exact issue came up from a rookie LE K9-handler. He wanted Hennie to help him train a send to guard, without a bite. The handler explained his department wouldn't let him on patrol with his dog until he could demonstrate sending his dog from a distance to guard a suspect without a bite. At first Hennie could not understand what the rookie wanted as it made no sense to him. I explained it thoroughly to Hennie and when it was clear to him
he refused to help the rookie. He said it was stupid to send a dog to bark and guard. Doing that helps the suspect and weakens the dog.