There are many ways to train "out". Best is to do it as a game. But often some dogs will not "out" for one reason or another and this may be a viable last resort possibility.
BTW Balabanov is not just sport trainer. I have work with one of his students for years and I know what he teaches and how he trains and I have been at his seminar for LE in Las Vegas where he taught this to a LE dog which the LE officer was not able to out for a year. After about 5 minutes or less this dog was outing well.
Speed in training is no virtue. JMO.
IMO for police service starting with a puppy prospect is not cost effective, unless as part of a foster home program. For law enforcement I also don't see the point of training before a year old. It takes just a couple of months of structured training to get the dog to a point where it can start working apprehension. Easier to just buy a green dog that's a good prospect, than raise a pup for a year and then possibly have it wash out. For a privately owned dog most people choose a pup + hope. Most of the time they get an average dog but end up keeping it anyways, because they don't really need (and can't handle) the level of protection they claimed to be looking for.
I do not argue that what you are saying is the reality. Cost efficiency and doing it right are 2 opposing things. Czech Border payroll did it that way ( raising pups and training them from day 1) and they produced some of the best working dogs on the world. The pups which did not make it were sold to private homes and that partially payed for the program. Washing dog out at 1 year does not mean that you need to put the dog down. These are just 2 different approaches. In today society it may not be possible to test and train as it was done in past. However that does not mean that such approach is not viable and even better from dog training point of view. To argue that today approach is sufficient is true but "sufficient" is the operant word .
I have to disagree with your overall assessment. Example my 3 street dogs prior to my retirement were all donations each tested over a 3 day period. #1 K-9 Kanto Vom Wolfsgehege, over 100 captures, over 50 track captures, 38 evidence finds, credited with saving my life. #2 K-9 Rico, 78 captures, 35 track captures, 26 evidence finds same city. #3 K-9 Grizzly 84 captures, 44 track captures, 20 evidence finds.
As I stated before I am able to weed out any dog who does not meet the minimum criteria in the time period. I don't have the time nor do I care for breeding or additional training or testing of dogs to ensure they will make the cut. I think the results with my previous partners and many others I have procured and trained over the decades did and are doing quite well.
The point I am making is not that "3 days test" is not good test. The point I am making is that 3 day test often eliminates good or even better dogs then dogs selected.
The time allocated to training and selection of the dog is in my experience often insufficient due to lack of knowledge of superior officer, lack of time and money and personnel.
That does not mean that there is not better way then time stressed a
approach forces many depts to select and train dog. That is all I am saying.
How does the apprentice learn the real shit if it is locked in a vehicle. If the situation is clear, what's to learn? If the situation goes to hell you have a handler in control of two dogs, one being an apprentice.
Sounds like a cluster fuk waiting to happen, so many scenarios I cringe to think about.
Cluster fuk happens if you do not know what you are doing. The point of apprentice dog is to bring the dog into situations which are charged by atmosphere of real situation which is never reproducible in scenario training. . Nowhere have I said that the one handler handles 2 dogs nor is locked up in the vehicle. The apprentice dog is used after the scenario is evaluated and the handler decide that the dog is ready for it. And also usually if apprentice dog is used there is a second dog (senior dog) handled by second handler. at the same time as a back up.
In Czechoslovak Border patrol there were 2 handlers with 2 dogs on patrol. One senior dog and one apprentice dog. Apprentice dogs were taken on patrol at 8 - 12 months. That way the apprentice dog goes through real life scenarios and draws drive and support from the senior dog and does it in real situation which is n\impossible to reproduce in training. It is really very useful way to introduce the dog without worrying how the dog apprentice dog is going to do in first real scenario which with today type of training is always serious concern.
You can look at it as a group agitation in real life scenario.
No second handler necessary. The handler has both dogs with him in his vehicle but chooses the dog based on situation.
Yes, to select dog after 3 days is working. McDonalds food also works in order to fill stomach. But in my opinion good quality "food" takes time to cook. Today's training and testing has factored in the speed of results as paramount issue. I may be dated but I have learned that speed in testing and training is not a virtue. Different mindset. I have worked with LEs who used apprentice system and it was always with superior results.
I understand that the test works for dogs accepted . IMO it is just shame that the test eliminates some potentially great dogs.
In Czechoslovakian Border Patrol who bred their own dogs, several tests were done on pups up to 1 year old . Then later on dog became apprentice dog who tug along with older - senior dog which was eventually going to be replaced by this apprentice. The dog was watching real action and was used in less critical situations to get his feet wet. In my opinion there is no reason why this can not be attempted even if the department does not want to get into breeding dogs. The kennel in the cruiser can be divided and 2 dogs can be going along vehicle besides regular training the apprentice get training on a job. Such process produces superior dog teams. Of course the system now is set up in one way and nobody would take initiative to something like I have described.Too bad. I have guided similar apprentice program here in USA and it was a success.
Sergio I understand what you are saying and that is how it is these days. There are some point I would like to make.,All dogs have some training before the test. 1-2 years old dog with no training is neglected dog. There are many reason to test as Peter C hinted. The dog tested for LE these days is IMO not the best way to test a dog for such task. I know it is not practicable in the way the dogs are being worked and selected these days. Many good dogs do not show in 3 days what they are made out of. Good dog works for the handler rather then for himself and often will mourn lost place, routines and his old handler and will not work as well if at all in 3 days especially with strange handler who often has no knowledge of former handler's ways. Such dog is then passed as unsuitable where actually such dog would be excellent dog if time would be spent. The dog who works for himself will work out f the box , but that does not mean that it is the better dog for such task.
The testing systems these days are not promoting dogs who are the best for work but the ones who will work in acceptable way the soonest.
My opinion is that I do not rule any dog out until you work with it for some time. Test is only good to tell you where the dog is at at that very moment.
Out is a matter of respect - especially if you the handler/owner are the one with the toy or sleeve the dog is holding on relentlessly. If above suggestions fail. Try this:
Say OUT, give him 3 seconds ( every time exactly) and if he is not outing correct him on pinch 4x hard and fast into the direction of the sleeve on your arm or into the toy. If he does not out repeat another 4 x and increase hardness of the correction. Repeat until he outs. Then immediately reward him with more play.
To people who think that corrections are too hard I'll tell that if the dog is not outing then he obviously does not think so. If he outs then i stop corrections. Thus it is up to the dog .
I have learned this from Ivan Balabanov.
One prp climbed the fence I beleive and dog engaged. The next prp came from behind and chocked holded the dog. There was nothing wrong with the quality of the dog.
The problem was poor handling. I firmly beleive for 100% tracking on the long line for exactly this reason. Dog alone out there is very vulnerable. It can be shot stabbed choked drowned..... I am know some disagree but I am pretty firm on this. I have also confirmed this some of the best track and apprehend handlers some having over 200 apprehensions and this exactly what they will tell you too.
To say that people who can afford protection dogs do not need protection dogs is not so. Everybody does need protection and everybody does use what they can afford. But there is a trade off either way. Protection effective dogs in lesser neighborhood and villages are usually less social where people who can afford it will buy more sophisticated dogs meaning the dogs are more sociable thus more versatile thus more useful because the dogs like that can accompany their master to much more social situations. Since such dogs are more discriminative and more command responsive then dogs which are not trained but are just naturally protective. Such dogs are however more expensive and often give owner false sense that they have something they do not have.
Now I am not trying to put down naturally protective mix breed dogs. They are very valuable and can be very effective. and we can learn from them about genetically based natural protectiveness.
Obedience has 2 purposes. . To teach the commands and for the handler to establish leadership position. In obedience - I am in charge - leadership position. In protection after I command the dog to attack - dog is in charge until I say otherwise and I want the dog to understand that in protection after the command it is his game. If you put too much rigid obedience on the dog prior to training of protection then softer the dog is and more dominant you are more he will look up to you for leadership during protection and it may even go to the point that the dog may not want to go into defense or he may abandon a bite when such handler is coming near the dog. That may be true in prey or defense. Tougher the dog less this is true but some residual influence of what I have said above is always there.
IMO - with my dogs I live with I make sure that dogs comes 100% before I start protection. Nothing else. Except come, no and good boy/girl. Then when dog understands that in protection I want from him to go full bore with prejudice, then I finish obedience. That way I preserve the attitude of the full bore on command protection because the dog learned it first and what the dog learns first he does best, likes most and reverts to under stress. IMO there is always plenty of time to do obedience especially if you live with the dog.
Also during first learning phase of protection I absolutely do not do outs and just lift the dog off
Hi, here is my introduction.
My name is Hans I owe AlpineK9 and I am in dogs for about 49 years. I have been training dogs on many levels, commercially, for fun and as non profit. I also breed and sell dogs. I am originally from Czechoslovakia where I have trained dogs too. In USA I have started in dogs when I worked for CGG oil exploration company as surveyor and avalanche controller. We were shooting a lot of dynamite and tripped a lot of dangerous avalanches and I was in charge of avalanche control for our crew. Thus I decided to train me S&R GSD dogs. They were Timber and Lady american bred dogs which went to work with me via helicopter for several years. They were true working dogs. After then I started importing dogs from Europe and breed them and train them for PP and LE and I have introduced Czechoslovakian border patrol dogs to USA and elsewhere. ... but that is another long story. What I like is not as much sport even though I have competed in PSA titled 2 dogs there and competed in 2004 nationals where I go 2nd place in open. But my passion is training for work - any work being it family, protection, Law enforcement and S&R. My passion is behavior modification and fixing problems with any working dogs like in LE or personal protection or even pets. Nothing is more rewarding to me then to fix a dog which is then saved from being damped or discarded from LE program.
I love personal protection and I am most interested in systems where the dog is trained to be civil from get go or sond retraining of sport dogs into civil dogs. I love to teach others about this and have clients from all over come to me for consultations and training. I am totally not interested in pissing contests which I see on forums quite often and I like what I see here which is courteous communication and exchange of informations. That is why decided to join. I want to share what I know and cincsider what others post with open mind. I am also very interested in helping to help solve other people's problems with their dogs.