Posts by Matt K

    Good call on waiting till 18 months Matt. I agree with this practice if you feel he isnt coming out enough. Each dog is very different.


    You know that the dog will bark agressively, chase a man, and at least lunge at an approaching stranger. Giving him time to build confidence and maturity in his day to day life might just be the ticket.


    My current male never saw a decoy until he was 16 months and he turned out just fine and I've seen dogs as old as 3 years old do great on thier first bite.


    I agree, he already serves some purpose as when he is left out in the fenced in yard everyday while we are at work he will meet any stranger at the gate and bark. Its enof where the delivery guy gives him enof respect that he now delivers the package a good 50 feet in front of the driveway gates. I highly doubt he would actually bite anyone that decided to jump the fence.

    Many myself included believe that the trigger for a protection dog to engage a threat is defense ie the dog feels pressure, and is genetically predisposed and/or trained to react to pressure with aggression. This is definitely true for some dogs.


    Does anyone think that an effective trigger can be prey? It occurred to me because my male rott is hard wired to go after any fast movement. An aggressive person's movements are fast and strong, and will definitely trigger the dog's prey drive/interest. Where it goes from there is another story, but in this case prey was what drew the dog's attention not any kind of pressure. Thoughts?


    Prey defiantly can be the trigger, most of it pertains to the levels of drives in the dog ie...which side it balances to. My old Mal when taking him for a walk would fire up in prey even as a pup if someone was walking, running or riding a bike AWAY from him. The exact same reaction as if a rabbit ran across the hiking trail. But if you would have stared at him on the trail as you approach walking slow teeth would be barring and he'd get angry, same thing when left alone at home. But even when started in defense as soon as you got within 10 feet he would switch to angry / emotional prey response stop barking and just try and bite you.


    Some of my old bulldogs that were capable of civil work but weren't very sharp were very much dependent apon fast sudden movements. But if hit really hard while on the bite would switch to a more serious fighting mind set bite harder start growling and overall start showing emotion....assuming they were capable of this most were just all prey.

    The session was ended by putting the dog back on the leash and chasing the decoy off the property. The decoy was wearing a sleeve for peace of mind, the dog is not ready to bite.


    If I don't see things changing drastically in the next session or two I am just going to put him up until he is 18 months old.

    He is sitting down because this was the end of a long session, camera on my tablet was acting up on me turning off on its own. Not sure I am liking his progression so far, I will stick it out to at least 18 months if not 2 years of age. I will try to remain patient and objective until then, if he turns out to be at least a average performing CO I would be very happy. At least he is super easy to live with.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nlsW7jyPX0

    Brody,


    The type of transfer I am talking about is a fighting tactic, ie the pain stops or I get the upper hand in the fight if I go after the arm beating me. Or I let go and bite the opponent somewhere to cause more damage, both are done because the dog is feeling insecure about his current bite / current situation in the fight. These are still hard bites. I like these dogs by the way, they are thinking tactically and they have courage to stay in the fight and take a lot of abuse. But I believe their threshold to go into avoidance will come sooner.


    I am not talking about in the crazy hectic prey dog transfer due to multiple moving objects nor the nervy type like a bad CO where they aren't biting hard or are transfering further away from the man. I am referring to like you mentioned transfer bites that are full on efforts. I have never approached the transfer via the two ball / prey method, I don't care to either.


    I worked a different pit x Doberman that hurt a man bad by regriping into the groin of a decoy in a suit. It got a huge reaction from the guy as he was hurt bad and the dog remembered it for the rest of its life. Every decoy had to be aware of it because given the chance the dog would always look for your groin, and every bite from this dog was hard. This dog did it not to protect himself from further damage but because it wanted to inflict more pain, I worked a American Bulldog that wanted to go after your face for the same reason. These type of dogs are coming from the same place mentally as the dog that transfers to the arm or leg that is beating them.

    There are some pitbulls and bandog / pitbull crosses that will work a human like a dog, they however are extremely rare. I have seen a couple that could not be taught out and also could not be forced off the bite no matter how pressure / abuse applied by the decoy. These dogs would literally pass out when pulling up on the collar until they let go, they would actually go unconscious while still having the suit in their mouth. Wake up puke sometimes start seizing when coming to again and then go right back at it once they fully regained consciousness. I know of three such dogs, one was a OFRN pitbull, one was a whopper pit which is already a bandog and the other was pit x Doberman cross. I worked and seen all three of these dogs worked while given the instruction to see if you can break the dog while on the bite. They could not be broke, and training sessions like this will get pulled from youtube.


    I know of a pitbull x bulldog cross that was on a live bite for over 10 minutes and took a enormose amount of abuse way more than was shown in the video. The collar popped off during it all and it ended taking someone reaching in the mouth and sliding the jaws sideways with all their might to pry it off. No amount of various strikes did anything other than injure the dog (including hits to the head). On top of all the physical things it endured from the people trying to get the dog off this dog was also being bit in the rear leg by a bulldog the entire time. This bite actually exposed the femor bone on the dog's rear leg.


    I sold a different whopper bred pit (mastiff x pit) to a small shipping firm in Chicago that was getting broke into almost nightly. I got a call almost a week later that the dog was found dead one morning with its jaws still clamped on someone's ripped off thumb with a bloody screw driver laying several feet next to the dog. This was a 40lbs dog that was so unsocial it had to delivered it in a crate wearing a muzzle. This was the only dog I have ever owned that I could not train it to out on a decoy.


    A dog that is not dead game in my experience when tested really hard will transfer if its a good dog, let go and try and flank you if its a weak dog, or let go and go into avoidance ie.... worthless cur.


    Its worth argument that a dog that transfers will last longer against a man than one that is dead game and continue to take abuse until it dies on the bite even though most people would consider a dog that transfers to be a weaker dog.

    "I believe these types of tests are compromised from the start, the dog , any dog, knows the game is on regardless of how we think it isn't."


    Try it with a new decoy without the suit in a area he has never done bite work on before, somewhere he is at ease like if you have a daily walk route. If you dont have a muzzle you can still do this exercise to see how sharp your dog is just without contact obviously.

    A dog that's pulling an opponent is at best doing so with the mind set of neutralizing it, over how long a distance will it keep pulling? A dog that's pushing wants to finish his opponent, that's the mindset I want to see.


    Exactly, I have never seen a dog on the winning end of a dog fight moving backwards.

    These Dutch dogs are hard and dangerous, don't let their focus on training grip confuse you. There have been plenty of people bitten hard by these things even as tiny puppies, including their own handlers. I know of several experienced handlers who have been put in the hospital by their own dog from these lines.


    The pulling back method with a 70-90lbs shepherd they just don't have the power to take a man off their feet. If you have ever worked a mastiff that approaches 200lbs then yes the jerking back method on the bite is very effective at controlling a man.

    Instead of the decoy pulling away from the dog on the bite while the handler is pulling back in the opposite direction, try having the decoy walk backwards with the dog and the handler follows him with a loose leash, this may help to get the dog to start pushing into the decoy. What you are doing is a push / pull reaction and is making the dog jerk backwards.


    The KNPV guys are experts at this. If the dog is chewy while walking behind him with a loose leash you can gently push behind the back of this head into the decoy and calm him down while walking with them. There are other subtle things you can do while walking behind them too.


    Here is a video of the grand sire to the Mal x Dutchy I used to have.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoxMIcmoeVE

    A long while back before youtube became mainstream there used to be a couple videos of a single Dogo in a pit killing either a Puma or mountain lion. Some videos out there showing them catching in the field on large cats but they weren't working alone.


    I think the main thing is mine set, wolves hunt in packs and have instinct to attack in a fashion that doesn't take in harm in the process. They are predators not fighters. A single hunter like a cat has less options of flanking a large animal when it attacks so I believe it is going to have more courage against a large animal as it doesn't have much choice but to take it head on or any angle that it can. Doesn't help any a cat has five weapons and a dog has one.


    Big cats heads are a lot like a pit, moderate muzzle length, triangle shaped wide head leaving lots of room for muscle. Built to bite and hold for a long time, the wolf / shepherd just isn't as affective.


    When I am in the woods with bears and big cats, I put my trust in Glock not dogs.


    Edit: Sorry, Chad's post wasn't up when I wrote mine.

    Dan,


    While I agree with most of what you said, I think the ones that were biting well would take quite a lot of abuse before curing, the ones biting really nervy probably not so much. If the dogs in the prior videos had a lot of prior training then I think a whole lot less of them. Like most good protection dogs the man is a whole lot more likely to cur before the dog without a bite suit on. Two good protection dogs I don't think a single man stands much chance, the guy is gonna cur first. That's why most security companies rent out two dogs at a time. I also thinking kicking a 60lb Obama dog in the head and kicking a 150lbs+ dog that comes in low like a bull are two completely different things. I think its a lot more likely to get a CO to cur after it has bit you then to repel a confident one that is bull rushing you.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn-P8df_Mr0


    The dog in this video is advertised as his first session ever. What is interesting in this video as the intial grip is typical bad nervy CO, after he is hit his intensity of biting kicks in as the dog starts to look like he is fighting instead of just biting enof to make the person leave the property. I doubt most CO are like this though.


    Rott was the first dog on my list just couldn't find any good ones, a bunch of BS breeders around me and online too. Even people who advertised working dogs with German pedigrees full of titles and Jeneck dogs too wouldn't even let you work their dogs in person. Find me a good Rott in 3-5 years after my bulldog dies that doesn't go after its own family and I am all ears:D I wasn't in the know enof to know where to look where I would get a good pup for sure so sick of washing pups out. I knew when I got a Mal or CO from good bloodlines I would get a man aggressive pup for sure that would be very sharp full knowing they aren't game until the end like a fighting dog that is bred for gameness. I don't think any breed that wasn't culled on the spot for not being game and bred around this has any legit expectation to not cur if hurt bad enof.


    A lot of things are give and take in life the super low threshold dogs may not be game but there are advantages to them over the high threshold for aggression dogs that will fight to the bitter end. Most notably sharpness. Pretty darn hard to find a dog that will go off on everybody that is passive that is also dead game. To me a dog that is left alone in the house or behind its fence needs to be razor sharp to be counted on, fighting ability comes second after this.


    I dug all these CO biting videos out as a idea to what I can reasonably expect my dog to perform when it comes time as CO's arent know for biting well so I can gauge how good or bad he is for his breed. Not trying to promote this as a superior breed, I thought I would just share as I don't think most people including myself have much experience with how this breed performs. Plus its kind of fun to watch as they bite way different than most typical protection dog videos that you see.

    This is very cool thread. I love the videos, thanks Matt for putting all that together here. I also enjoyed your telling of what it's like to live with your pup.


    I have many thoughts about this kind of dog, some shallow and obvious, others more profound :) But for now I just want ask one thing; What do you mean by tested hard? Referring to the last video.


    From the best I can tell the last video looks like a breeder who has a yard full of dogs and wanted to test his stock. To me they all appear to be young adults probably around breeding age of 2 years plus or minus. My guess is also they all probably never seen a protection training session before. By tested hard I mean a dog that has never been "protection trained" or prior agitation sessions to build up confidence is being tested for attacks on handler and trespassing on property. Not tested like the first session of agitation where the dog is agitated from a distance and then the decoy runs away. I have never even or heard of a breeder whether its Mals, GSD, rotts, bandogs or whatever test their dogs like this without having previous training sessions whether it be something more serious like Kohler style or schutzhund / psa style or a combo of both. Normally its several sessions gradually building in intensity and seriousness if not year or so before a dog is tested in a real world scenario which would then be seen as proof of successful training and solid genetics.


    The problem with that is how much of it was from ALOT of training with great trainers and how much of it was from genetics?


    To me it was testing pretty hard for a green dog, no they didn't always put on much physical pressure on the bite but some scenes there was that though. It seems the CO's way of handling high physical pressure on the bite is to either switch the grip up higher on the chest or attempt to get the face to cause the attack to stop by causing more damage. Or by switching its grip to a position where it is harder for the man to keep hitting the dog. Obviously the first is more preferable.


    Just throwing thoughts out there not trying to promote the CO as superior to other breeds, if it was up to me I would still have my KNPV Mal but the wife couldn't tolerate his over the top destruction of our house and property anymore. But I am enjoying my CO a lot though, still aint no Mal. But even then my old Mal was a complete terror by 2 years of age after a lot of serious training I even question what his response would be at 2 years of age with no agitation training. He defiantly did posses a lot of defensive drive and was naturally very unsocial since a pup but he defiantly preferred to switch over to prey drive when the man got close even when a situation he started out in defense. So I cant help but wonder without agitation training to build his confidence in defensive drive would he have curred out when pushed hard in a real life situation like this? Also how effective would his genetically insane prey drive would have been without training to build confidence that men are nothing more than rabbits?


    As a breeder I wouldn't have risked running my dog off the field with the dog being off leash like some of these tests on green dogs did. At that point it would be very hard if not impossible to erase that experience of being put into avoidance and the dog would effectively be ruined for protection or sport competition. So yes I find it interesting the way they test these dogs compared to what I have been exposed to thus far.


    Just to clear things up I have no intentions of ever breeding a dog again.

    I think that there is a solid stock of dogs over there that would produce good biting dogs Matt. It all depends on what your pups parents are like.


    I wasn't much of a fan of the LGD breeds as they are very animal aggressive which usually doesn't transfer well to man work but after looking deeper into the breed types I stand corrected. There's something very un nerving about a 200lbs. animal coming for you that means absolute assault. As far as a centry dog I don't think you could find a better animal. With all the size, fur, and drool that comes with a dog like that it's not my cup o tee for a PD but damn the good one's are flat our scary.


    I am no LGD breed expert but from the research I have done and people I have talked to the CO are supposed to be less dog aggressive but sharper with strangers, and the Central Asian Shepherd are supposed to be the ones that have dog fighting in the back ground. They are supposed to be more dog aggressive and more stranger social than the CO. The Russian lineage CO are supposed to be the most man aggressive with a lot of "active aggression" as they refer to it in the LGD community. I got mine from a Russian native who lives in the states and rents out his dogs and sets up the containment systems to business & warehouses for guard use, he also breeds and sells pups as well.


    Mine is pretty low dog aggressive, when we first got him as a tiny pup he light up my adult bulldog when she got close to his food. The next time she was around him she returned the favor and he just rolled over in a submissive position and pissed himself. They get along fine now but at first even though he was tiny he had some social aggressive issues with the other dog. I still cant play tug with the bulldog in front of him, and I still sometimes he likes to food guard his bowl if I drop something extra yummy and new in there, but its very manageable now if I yell at him he immediately stops being stupid with the bulldog.


    Had a submissive adult lab meet him last week on our daily walk that was off leash, I could tell he was thinking about it but soon chilled out when he saw the dog meant no harm. The two walked side by side the rest of the walk, Bear still was watchfull and not trusting of him but was not aggressive. Might change when he is mature though. If I would have been walking my bulldog with a off leash adult dog I'd be looking for a tree branch to use as a break stick.


    The size isn't bad as he spend most of his life just laying around super lazy dog. The fur and the drool is pretty over the top though. He slobers about 4-8 ounces of water on our kitchen floor every time he drinks water, cleaning that up several times a day isn't fun. When he is shedding we don't bring him inside much and rarely bring him over on the carpeted area in the house. We even have to sweep and dust the outside deck and railings. Fur gets knotted pretty easily if you don't keep up on brushing him at least once a week. Potty trained really easy though.


    I wouldn't own one if I lived in a populated area. My 4 and 5 year old kids and wife love him though, just a big ole ham that loves tummy rubs.