I regularly receive inquiries for rottweiler puppies, some of them are dumb. When I can tell the person is a novice, but is intelligent and seriously interested, I will take the time to educate them. When the questions are downright stupid I just want to drive them away. I have a real job where I deal with people in a politically correct way. I don't depend on dogs for a living, so I take care to not allow my dogs to fall into what I consider to be the wrong hands. I've been around dogs and dog people long enough to get an accurate read on people quickly. In this thread I will share some of the dumb messages I get, my responses in red.
I’m looking for a big head male pick of the littler, that can be good with kids and trained for obedience and more. Very interested in buying and it doesn’t have to be for Christmas. Thank you for your time and you can email me for call me tomorrow. Thank you again
Would you please specify in inches how big you would like the big head. We will need the following measurements:
1. Tip of nose to occipital point.
2. Height of stop.
3. Circumference around jowl line.
4. If length of teeth is of importance please provide that too.
1 9-10 on the nose
2 scissor bite
I’m sorry we can’t accommodate you because that’s too small. Our big heads are much bigger than that. Our dogs are for buyers who want really BIG heads.
Looking for a big head pick of the liter with,big shoulders and very trainable.. last time I send an email I was told that I was not want what you guy have…… well try me I’m will to go visit as soon as you guy are ready to sell one of your dog to some that is willly to buy one as soon as,possibly…… waiting on you thank you again and waiting to take a visit…. thank you for your time again and have a nice holiday…..
I see. I've always left this for later as I felt I can do it at any time, it's just obedience. But it's possible that doing it at an early stage as per Koehler, in the long run will produce a deeper ingrained discrimination in the dog. Resulting in less false alerts that the handler would have to address, and a correct alert that could save the handler if he wasn't aware of a threat.
I also fast forward when I see the dog is ready. I think Koehler structured this progam so as to give even a lesser prospect and/or an inexperience decoy the best chance to succeed. The truth is that some strong dogs just need a little stimulation to get really angry, they don't need their confidence increased or shown that they're "allowed" to bite. These dogs do benefit from suspicion building though.
Another part that I regularly skip (though I have regrets about it) is having a neutral person walk through the training area. Mostly because I have trouble getting another person to come to the training session for just this little bit. I've seen no negative effects. But I believe that if Koehler included it in the program it must be important.
If the handlers and trainers who's program is based on prey drive would see the intensity the Koehler method produces in a good dog, it would set them on the right track. Glad for you Phil.
This story made me smile, thanks.
I understand you qualified the team for protection training checking the obedience first. Not sure why you implemented obedience (sit stay) during agitation so early in the game? If the dog didn't have good potential that could be confusing to him and could affect the drive you're trying to bring out. With a really good dog though it's not a problem, but then you're skipping forward about 2 weeks of Koehler training. In any case that's the kind of dog I prefer to work with so great! Snap a pic of him with your phone if possible.
Teuto, the conditions you described remind me that cold tolerance to a large extent is a matter of conditioning. I've kept rottweilers outdoors in a kennel in down to -15c and they do fine. They grow a thick undercoat. I've also seen pit bulls kept in these conditions and they seem to do fine. If a dog is kept indoors and is taken outdoors temporarily, that's when it may have difficulty coping with extreme cold, with the exception of breeds specifically made for the cold like the CO mentioned by Sergio. But then that's a whole different animal you'll be living with as compared to a rott.
I don't think it's necessary to start mixing breeds to get a dog that can do what you describe, even from a purely physical traits point of view. Never mind the unpredictable temperament traits you'll end up with. That's assuming you know what you're looking for as far as the dog's temperament.
Keep in mind you'll need to find homes for the pups you will not be keeping. This is most often easier said then done when it comes to mixed breed pups.
When you say cold weather protection dog I understand you mean a dog that will live outdoors full time. How cold does the temperature get? What shelter will you have for the dog?
Interesting how two breeds with high prey drive sort things out in a fight without going into full blown prey drive. You can fast forward to near the end for the climax.
Well I did not expect that, new to me. Reminds me of the fake hand they use at dog shelters to evaluate dogs for food aggression etc. Here are my thoughts. First, it's good that they created it, it's an interesting option. It will be beneficial for some dogs to experience the feel of a real bite. Dogs that are trained exclusively on a sleeve sometimes get confused on their first real bite. But.. I don't think this rubber arm can be used to increase drive in the same way real bites do. I don't think it's meant to be used consistently with one dog, maybe once or twice for proofing. I don't think it's durable enough last long.
That said I don't think it's an essential tool. My objective when I'm training a biting dog is to create a mindset, a good bite comes naturally as an extension of this mindset in a strong dog, and I wouldn't waste my time training a dog that's not strong. In other words I want the dog angry and wanting to hurt the man. Once a dog is working like this he'll bite whatever you present him with.
Also how are you supposed to protect your arm behind this rubber arm? If the dog takes a full hard bite the canines can reach behind it.
There are so many sleeves there I don't know which one you're talking about. If you can post a direct link to it.
Phil, please post a link to this sleeve. I haven't seen it.
That's not to say that the PSD can't have the "destroy the threat" component, just that he can function adequately as a PSD without it. Perhaps the extra edge may make him a liability used for apprehension, too much injury inflicted on the suspect. I don't know that for a fact, maybe a very experienced PSD handler can answer this.
I suppose a PD can function to a degree without the "in it for the fight" component, but for my purposes that's not an ideal mindset for the dog.
If you don't understand what I mean by "in it for the fight", the dog enjoys the fight and is happy to continue. He can withstand a lot of pressure. But the handler is always there to end the fight. It is in essence a very rough game. The dog will only switch his bite to keep the game going, if the bite is giving him too a hard time, or not enough of a good time.
A dog that wants to end the fight will bite to hurt and incapacitate his opponent. There are not a lot of dogs that can learn this working on a suit. The dog actually has to be strong enough to somewhat hurt the man through the suit for this to happen. I don't know that there's a decoy skilled enough to offer the necessary reaction if he's not really feeling anything, the timing has to be perfect.
In reference to the first "home invasion" video I'm surprised at how fast everything appears to happen. Being the decoy in that scenario, from my perspective things happened slower with plenty of time to adjust my actions for the benefit of the dog. When I barged in the dog immediately reacted and came towards me. But he postured and I saw there was no commitment to engage. Immediately I aimed a coaxing kick at his chest to bring him out and on me, it worked. The reason for this was that first it was my instinct as the decoy to help the dog decide and commit, and second I knew this video will be used to demonstrate the dog and I wanted him to look good. Again I'm surprised how in the video it looks like the dog came right in ready to engage, and I tried to stop it/offer opposition with a kick. I assure you this was not the case.
Further I had to keep the dog engaged and on top of me by touching him throughout the exercise. Only at one instant did I feel a muzzle hit at all, and it was actually to my lip when I bent too low.
After that I was done and froze, and just had to wait for the handler to finally decide to get his dog back.
I like how the dog reacts instantly in that situation and offers a threat. But there was no commitment, which raises the question of what the dog would do if he was met with hard opposition. With the amount of expert agitation and attempts at bitework this dog received, together with its purported aggressiveness, this scenario demonstrated him to be just OK. With most credit given for the quick natural reaction to apparent threat.
All in all there was enough counter threat from the dog to make most normal bad guys stop in their tracks or retreat giving the home owner enough time to grab a weapon, or as reactive as the dog is probably offer a deterrent through an aggressive display long before the intruder came through the door. But as a dog to take into a situation where the shit was sure to hit the fan and the dogs opponent is someone with balls of steel and a stick in the hand, this dog remains far from being proven.
Perhaps due to liability issues especially in the case of an ineffectual handler it's better that the dog did not go straight in for the bite. After all a stranger only "entered" the house, and did not yet try to harm anyone. Despite numerous training sessions the dog appears to revert to an instinctive behavior. Perhaps the dog would escalate with escalation of threat. It's just not what I'm used to seeing from a genetically correct dog that had the right experiences in man work, and displays a strong desire to engage and fight in situations where it learned that it's allowed and expected to do it.
In conclusion, the dog reacted - good. Didn't commit - good or bad depending on how you look at it. My problem with it is it leaves a doubt about what would happen if the pressure came down hard.
If you're looking at this video from the perspective; is this how dogs should be trained or is this the kind of experience that's beneficial to the dog's development? In general the answer is NO! It can and will lead to instability.
But.. if you have experience with mals you know that some can show serious aggression at a very young age. That if the dog is so inclined it can develop an instant on/off switch that will turn it stupid mad/biting chain link fence. And that the trigger for this switch can be anything, even something as unreasonable as the approach of it's owner to the kennel in a particular manner.
So looking at it from the perspective that something caught the owner's eye that to him is indicative of how the dog will be as an adult, and to demonstrate this he briefly encourages the behavior, then I think it's not a big deal.
If however he truly believes that's the way to bring out a dog he's misguided. Although once the dog is doing this it's easy to transpose the aggression to a stranger approaching the kennel and quit the owner stimulating the dog. Like I said it can lead to stability problems.
That said it looks like this guy is about the money, and his prices are funny. His presentation is ghetto, I can imagine who it appeals to. That said I'd have no problem checking out his dogs if I was on the market, but I wouldn't be overly hopeful and certainly wouldn't give him the asking price.
Thanks for the good words about the forum. I've considered shutting it down for apparent lack of interest. But I think I'll keep it going if only for the few who appreciate it. I hope some day it will attract more members of like mind and things will pick up.
It's not conventional but it's not bullshit either. I would do that as part of training a protection dog, but not as a way to systematically build up its confidence and aggression. I am more likely to give a dog this kind of experience if by nature it's a strong dog that doesn't need a lot of confidence building, just some situation work to let him know when it's ok to show aggression.
Too many trainers begin and end bitework without any context for the dog. In other words man comes out, he's mean to the dog, or stimulates the dog's prey drive, the dog shows aggression and is taught to bite. In this case the dog is not really protecting anything, there are no conclusions it can take away from this situation about when in real life it should "protect". The training in the video provided context, but too little in the way of confidence and aggression building which is what this particular dog appears to need. There should be a balance. Thanks for posting the video, this aspect of protection dog training is something I always keep in mind and there's been too little discussion about it.
Congratz on your pup.
Protection Dogs For You And Your Family by Tom Rose is a good overview and a nice read. Not training techniques per-say but good guidelines.
If you find something else good please post back.
It's shit when they know you but you don't know them, means they can get close without you realizing there's a threat. Although I'm sure a cop can pick up on subtle cues in a person's appearance and becomes alert quickly enolugh. I have a cop friend that became a detective, he tells me that he's still alert everywhere he goes including off duty. I guess that's one reason to not work in a department that's too close to where you live.
I don't think you said the wrong thing, at least the guy knows you won't back down so he'll have a fight on his hands, which is a deterrent. You can't get through to such people with any other way but force. Also he probably doesn't know you're retired, and I believe the general thinking is that messing with a cop carries serious consequences. Also people who are seriously intent on doing you harm don't announce it. When they enter confrontations like you described it's to get instant relief for their ego. Either way a being armed and having a dog is a good idea, next best thing to moving.