Posts by David Ishee

    Thanks Dan, I wouldn't charge anything if I could convince my dogs to eat grass. As it is I just hope to break even each year. Anyone thinking they'll breed working Bandogs and make a million dollars is going to be disappointed. I'm lucky mine has been pretty self supporting. There is no way I could pay for the 4000 lbs of chicken and and 2500 lbs of dog food I go through plus wormer, shots, vet costs, etc. So even though I feel like charging for pup eventually leads to financially based decision making, even if it's subconscious. That's why I charge by working appraisal, not color or gender. So if anything, financial incentive should drive me toward better working dogs. At least in theory.

    I agree, there are overly dominant dogs in any breed the toy breeds and terriers especially. And I agree even a dog who's more dominant than I like and hard to correct, can still be taught and trained. But as a breeder I don't want to breed dogs that need all that work. I want a good dog "out of the box" no dog is perfect from birth, but some are easier to work and live with than others. I like a dog my 6 year old daughter can command. Those are the dogs I choose to breed in hopes of producing more like them.

    I also agree broadly judging a breed is a mistake, no breed is full of identical dogs. Not all Rotties are dominant like not all game pits are dog aggressive. But game pits tend to throw dog aggression and rottis tend to throw dominance. It's just not my cup of tea.

    I did miss the pup question. I evaluate the pups, before they go so it depends on the pup. Top quality pups am asking 1500 the next step down 1000 down again 750 and just a pet dog 500

    I like the decoy to pet my dogs, I don't like a fog who invites, seeks, or welcomes it. He should only tolerate it as obedience to me. That said I like a social dog but after someone has proven they are a threat the dog shouldn't trust them. But a friendly or neutral person shouldn't be attacked just because they're there. A few days ago my wife and son walked up the road to look at some parked equipment that a road crew was using, my son is 3 and loves trucks and equipment. My wife brought Kronos on leash just in case. As they approached Kronos wasn't aggressive. One of the men asked if he would bite, she replied only if I tell him to or you try something. The guy slowly move to pet him and Kronos reacted the guy almost got bitten luckily his reactions were quick enough. If I had been there he would have been less on guard, but he knows when he's the front lines. I keep him social, we go to petsmart and basspro and he loves to go places. He's civil by nature and very socialized so he has a good balance. He'll let you come to my yard but not in my house or near my family without my say so. I don't want a dog so unsocial that he's a liability or so social that he's useless.

    But the risk of a social dog who has to be commanded to attack is that he could let someone on your property who's nice and might rob you, but can be turned on if need be. Then you only risk what someone could load in a van.

    If your dog is so civil that he'll bite anyone he sees, then your risking a lot more being taken in the lawsuit. In the end it'd be cheaper to get robbed by a thug than a lawyer.

    But whatever the dogs temperament he has to be able to protect your family that's what a protection/guard dog is for.

    When I say rank driven I mean, a dominant dog who wants to dominate family members. I don't want to have a power struggle with my dog. I like dogs who want to be in the submissive role with me and my wife and kids. Behaviors I don't like out of ranky dogs are things like food aggression, stubbornness, humping, rank based aggression with humans or other dogs.

    The bitch is named Freya, she's 90 - 100 lbs. Other than one of her sisters she is the most agile dog her size I've ever seen. Including jumping out of my old pen that was 6 ft. My new pen is 8 ft and has a roof because of her, and she didn't climb she jumped I watched her. She had a sister the same size who could do the same thing, my brother owned her and trained her to jump out on command. I got rid of her for dog aggression though.

    I'm not a fan of rank driven dogs so I'm not interested in the Rotti. But, I do have a litter on the ground right now from Achilles and my most athletic Bandog bitch. She's Dane,Pit,Neo,Bullmastiff,Bordeaux.

    I got a chance to work with Achilles last weekend, here are some pictures. I'll have video once I figure out how to cut several videos into one and get it off my phone and on the internet.

    Also, and I was really trying not to get into this, but I don't agree that the whole point of protection training is to build intensity or and control. If that's all you want you just build the dog up, force OB on him then do it over and over again. But the end result of that is a dog that's totally hectic and crazy everywhere, who only barely contains his rage because he has to to avoid punishment. That's why there is more to protection training than that. If they get too hectic you have to do work to calm them on the bite so they can focus and think. If they stop thinking you have to force them to focus. Otherwise all I'd have is craziness on the end of a leash. To draw another parallel to martial arts. The fighters who go out swinging crazy at 100% intensity all the time. Look very scary when they come at you and will usually win against unskilled fighters. But a well trained, cool and collected fighter who's got focus and skill will win over the wild bull type every time.

    They only time I could see just building intensity and adding control. Is if the dog was a low drive dog and didn't really want to work, so you couldn't go very far with him anyway. Then you'd reach the dogs potential, he'd bite and release when you told him to.

    Actually I don't think that's it, I'd been handling her for hours with him right there. He didn't bite me out of competitiveness or possessiveness. If you could have been there to see his behavior you'd see. I've bred a lot of aggressive dogs and have never been bitten even if it wasn't my male. Regardless of what I did with the bitch, maybe if they'd been rank driven dogs I could see that. With low rank drive dogs I don't think they really care about a human right then because they know humans aren't breeding competition. I'd expect male dog to get bitten for that reason.

    It's funny, I come from a Martial Arts background, and I'm reminded of quite a few conversations I've had with many other people training humans to protect themselves. No two trainers are going to agree on exactly how someone will reach their full potential. In my experience, the end result is usually about the same whatever the method.

    Lee and I discussed what I wanted out of this dog before we started working with him. If I wanted him to bark and bite strangers working mostly in defense I wouldn't bother training him. Because he was that way when I met him. Did I mention he bit me the first time I tried to be around him. This is with the distraction of a bitch in heat trying to breed and he was exhausted from trying to breed for 3 hours. He'd been around me for those 3 hours and I had been friendly with him and his owner the whole time. It was just a warning bite but I had two punctures and bruising for 2 weeks, and I'm a quick healer. He'd gone to a corner in his pen and laid down by the female, I went to the corner calmly and bent at the waist to get the female by the collar. He thought I was moving suspiciously and trying to corner him, he let me know how he felt about that. He has enough suspicion and defense for my needs. If you came into my yard he'd bite you. Ideally I'd like him to not bite people unless I say or they show a clear threat. To that end I'd like to give him some control and balance.

    I'd also like to be able to do some advanced personal protection (PP) skills. Not just a home guardian. I want to see him doing schutzhund type skills, to show he's got more in him than just guard work. In my program I'm looking to produce anywhere anytime protectors, that can do the job of a police or military dog, and defend the home while being family safe. That requires different drives to work together. A lot of mastiffs are one trick ponies with defense only who could never hope to do anything much more advanced than bite on command. I'm not interested in that for the same reasons I'm not interested in a prey only dog who thinks it's all a game. That's why when looking for breeding stock I'm not wanting to get defense from this breed and prey from this one and fight from this one. It's possible but it's much easier if you can find dogs from each breed capable of meeting in the middle. It's easier to get defense in a bandog if it's coming from the bulldog and the mastiff and it's easier to get prey in a bandog if it is too. If Achilles can be trained to work well in prey, defense and fight. Great! I want to see it I, want to see a Neo do the bark and hold, or a send and recall, along with what Neo's are classically strong at. I've never heard of one doing it. I think this dog can, the only way to know is to try to train him. If it's just not in his nature it'll show up. If it is, it'll show me how well suited his genes are for my bandog program. I want a die hard GSD fan who thinks mastiffs are useless as war dogs, to say damn I didn't know a Neo could do that.

    As for Achilles becoming sleeve oriented, I don't think that'll be a problem, Kronos is half Neo and Lee has trained him from a pup. He also worked his sire and grandsire. Kronos will target a sleeve in prey but he'll also target a leg, a head, whatever is presented. Kronos easily targets a man as a prey item. I know if Achilles starts to get too equipment focused or too prey oriented, we'll do work to pull him back to the middle. We'll just have to see how he develops, go from there and be responsive.

    However it goes we'll know soon enough because I'm going to keep him training and I'll get more video and pictures out there as he progresses.

    He's got more stamina than I do when I'm walking or running with him, but I'm not in the shape I once was. He's not in working shape yet, until I got him he'd just sat in a cage all his life. Training was probably the most work he's ever done. I'll have a better idea of what he's really got once he's able to move around some. I'm glad he's an active dog though. He wants to get out of the pen and run around. That'll make his conditioning a lot easier.


    Most Danes are very different from other Mastiff breeds. Though most European lines of dane are more true to the typical mastiff type. Physically, a good Dane can add height, low body fat, tight skin, short coat, body length, speed, maneuverability and muzzle length, without losing bone, muscle and size. Mentally a good Dane can contribute defense drive, prey drive and strong pack instincts. Other pluses are the willingness to track by smell and a good nose.

    A fine old school Dane that really lives up to the name German Mastiff.

    There aren't many left in American lines built like this. Even fewer with what it takes to do manwork.

    I couldn't believe there was nothing in the Bandog section so I decided to post a little about my Bandog program.

    My program is goal is to produce a superior working mastiff. A dog with size, athleticism, drive and stability. There was a time when the mastiff was a dog bred for war and no one considered anything else when a war dog was needed. Most mastiffs today can't even protect themselves much less follow their master into a war. My goal is to restore the mastiff to their previous state. To do that I'm using a combination of working mastiffs and working bulldogs (mostly APBT) to bring together the traits needed to make a useful working mastiff.

    David Ishee